Toys

[Esoteric]

[user]Esoteric[/user], I have a feeling that you are much more the exception than the rule. I own moving lights, I have access to 8 additional MLs for free as needed, and I own scrollers, ICues, rotators, scene machines, other "toys" as well as a quite full complement of conventional fixtures. My theatre is resident on the campus of the University of Utah, so I also have the opportunity to work with them, they are my source for the 8 additional MLs. On average, we only hang the moving lights for three of the seven shows in our season, the theatre department at the U uses theirs like glorified color changers.

I don't think that it is true that hanging even 20 MLs will cut a conventional light plot to a quarter of it's size. You just can't pack MLs in the same as conventionals and expect to be able to emulate all of the same angles and looks. However, with a color changer you may only have to hang one system of sidelights instead of one for each color of sidelight you want.

I agree that MLs are useful tools, and in the hands of the right designers can do amazing things. I am also NOT saying that what you do and how you design is wrong, I just don't think that it is appropriate for everyone. However, I also think that people use things like MLs when they are available just because they are available.

I know that if I were given $20K to spend (and assuming I already replaced the instruments that need replaced) there are many things that I would buy before I thought of adding more MLs to my inventory. I know that if I had enough SeaChangers to implement a full stage system they would get used much more frequently than MLs. All of our designers know what tools they have access to, and I am sure that if someone like you came to design for us we would use all the MLs, and we have a couple designers who do, but it is more the exception than the convention.

Again, just my honest opinion, no offense or hard feeling intended.

None taken man. I have said from the beginning, know your designers and know your space.

I had the privilege of learning my trade at the school that houses the world's largest moving light program. They were all around me and we were well trained in all their uses. That helped a lot. I used them in everything once I was allowed (they actually had to prevent us from using them at first).

But like I said, it is a personal choice. I use them in every show. Some designers I know will never use one in their life. It is nothing about the instruments (they could benefit from their use) it is all about the designers.

I know I can usually in a show replace 4 or 5 specials with a mover. I can use 4 or 6 movers to replace 2 dozen texture instruments (on cycs and on stage), I can use 8 CMY movers to replace at least 2 or 3 dozen wash units. I can easily cut a plot in half. Then go from there. Of course I don't hang 300 lights to begin with just because there are 300 lights in inventory. I only hang what I need and am going to use anyway.

I also don't use movers just because they are there (even though that is not what you are saying I know), but I love the flexibility they give a designer.

But you are right, my background and education are part of my design philosophy. Good thought provoking post though.

As usual your mileage may vary.

Mike

 

[lieperjp]

Esoteric I just have one question... Where??? I think it's awesome that previous quotes on MLs have been super high and all of a sudden we get these great low costs. I just wonder, though. Are those prices universally true? Can anyone, anywhere, at any time find exactly what they are looking for in great condition (yes, I see that you said used, slightly used, personally that's fine by me.) I mean, for you, that's great. If I could do the same thing, I would. But, if you had to answer no to any of those questions above, I wouldn't give that advice to other people who don't have the experience. It's easy to find Seachangers, Right Arms, Smart Colors. It's also easy and cheap to operate them. But if it's as easy as you say to buy slightly used MLs for ridiculously low costs, why not recommend them?

I, personally, don't shudder at the intial cost of an ML, it's the continuous maintenance and $120 lamps that would kill me. It's for that reason that I think I would stick to scrollers and S4s.

 

[gafftaper]

Ok, I missed the "4 for $7500" rendering most of my post pointless. I assumed you were talking about new gear.

To answer Lieper I checked Solaris Network and they currently have Studio Color 575's starting at $1590 each. So yeah you can buy four CMY instruments for $7500. What do you get for your $1590? Well these particular instruments have been part of somebody's rental stock since 1999.

Should you buy gear that's been on the road for 10 years is an entirely different discussion.

Also note that in this state it's illegal to purchase used equipment for use in a public institution with state funds... so even if I wanted I can't buy these instruments.

 

[Esoteric]

Esoteric I just have one question... Where??? I think it's awesome that previous quotes on MLs have been super high and all of a sudden we get these great low costs. I just wonder, though. Are those prices universally true? Can anyone, anywhere, at any time find exactly what they are looking for in great condition (yes, I see that you said used, slightly used, personally that's fine by me.) I mean, for you, that's great. If I could do the same thing, I would. But, if you had to answer no to any of those questions above, I wouldn't give that advice to other people who don't have the experience. It's easy to find Seachangers, Right Arms, Smart Colors. It's also easy and cheap to operate them. But if it's as easy as you say to buy slightly used MLs for ridiculously low costs, why not recommend them?

I, personally, don't shudder at the intial cost of an ML, it's the continuous maintenance and $120 lamps that would kill me. It's for that reason that I think I would stick to scrollers and S4s.

Sure they can. I sell them all the time to clients all over the US. Now, if you are in Georgia or Tennessee or South Dakota, I may only be able to give you phone support instead of actual hands on support, but I can get, gently used units to anyone. That is what my company does. I deal day in and day out with organizations who don't have a ton of money to spend (80% of my customers are schools, churches, community and small regional theaters) but are looking ahead and want flexibility and punch in their designs.

So while you should have a relationship with a good technician in your area, if I sell you moving lights you will get support from me.

Also in dealing with slightly used equipment you might have to wait a little bit to get exactly what you want. I have a client right now waiting because he wants Studio Color 250's instead of the 575's. He has been waiting for a week and I think I will be able to hook him up next week. But two weeks isn't long to wait.

Also prices aren't always stable. For example a month ago I had all the MAC250's you wanted for $1000 each. They had more than 100 hours on the unit but they were in perfect working order. This week, my best price is on the Kryptons at $1250 each. Next week, who knows? That is the way it runs with used gear.

But if you are patient, and willing to go for lightly used gear you can get great prices! You can also get good prices on new gear if you know where to look (I can't remember the last time I paid $4k for a moving light in the 250-575 range, even new).

That is why I do recommend movers! I had a theater that was going to buy color scrollers from me. But I was able to get them a deal on Color Commands. So they went with the Color Commands and now they love them. I had another theater that didn't want to do the outlay for the Commands and so they went with scrollers and I got them new for them at less than any local dealer price.

See, I don't recommend movers for everyone. If you only have a couple thousand to spend, then yeah, scrollers are probably your best bet. If you don't have enough spare parts to keep your inventory running or if you don't have enough units (that aren't 30 years old) then that might be your best investment. But when someone talks about getting "toys" you have to assume (on an internet message board without a consult) that they have everything they "need". So when I look at a budget and see $15000 my first thought is, oh, get some wash moving lights.

Because that is how I design and I know how useful they are. Now, I will say I sold a theater a couple of MAC500s and they basically sat and gathered dust because all their designers just didn't like using movers and thought they weren't appropriate for theater. I did one show and showed them what they are capable of, and they were amazed. They ended up selling them and buying scrollers (from me), but they didn't know what their designers liked. If you know your designers don't like, are afraid of, or just don't want to use movers, then don't buy them. But if they are open, movers can open up a wonderful world for you.

As far as lamp prices, it depends on what lamp you are talking about. I know where to get good prices on those as well, but myabe not under $100. Although how often does your average theater change moving light lamps? I know a theater that got 3 full seasons out of their MAC250 lamps and they used them in every show!

As far as were to get these prices? PM me.

Mike

 

[Esoteric]

Ok, I missed the "4 for $7500" rendering most of my post pointless. I assumed you were talking about new gear.

To answer Lieper I checked Solaris Network and they currently have Studio Color 575's starting at $1590 each. So yeah you can buy four CMY instruments for $7500. What do you get for your $1590? Well these particular instruments have been part of somebody's rental stock since 1999.

Should you buy gear that's been on the road for 10 years is an entirely different discussion.

Also note that in this state it's illegal to purchase used equipment for use in a public institution with state funds... so even if I wanted I can't buy these instruments.

You are correct! But don't go to Solaris, you mostly get junk. Like I said I can get equipment with use ranging from "lease item since 1987" (don't recommend you buy it) to "used once in a trade show less than 100 hours on the unit, still in the original box" to "client ordered wrong unit, brand new, need to sell them". The prices increase with each level, but I generally quote at the middle level. For a rental unit since 99 I wouldn't pay over $1000 per unit.

I will never pawn bad goods off on my clients. Bad business. I would rather tell you to buy new or to wait than give you something that had been out on tour for 10 years. Although if you want it and you are sure you can repair it (like I can) those can be great investments.

As far as the buying used equipment with state funds I have never run into that here in Texas. I don't know about other states rules, but generally when an educational institution buys equipment it has to be processed by the district and they will let you know of any regulations.

Mike