True1 <--> PowerCon converters?

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by azylka, Jun 5, 2019.

  1. azylka

    azylka Active Member

    Messages:
    124
    Likes Received:
    24
    Occupation:
    Technical Director
    Location:
    NYC
    I did a cursory search to see if this has been discussed yet, but how do we (and Neutrik) feel about the existence and use of these products?

    I see some of the options being:
    A) not a problem since you should just be smart and treat it like standard PowerCon
    B) definitely problematic since it will encourage someone to treat the converted cable like True1
    C) all the other thoughts you will all have shortly

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    https://www.adj.com/sip1pcoa
    https://www.adj.com/sip1pcoa
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  2. JD

    JD Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,177
    Likes Received:
    1,512
    Location:
    North Wales PA
    Agggg!! Can't we ever get a "standard" anymore? It used to be if you were sending audio, you had XLR. If you were plugging in a theatrical fixture, you had Stage Pin. Now it seems like I have boxes of "this to that" all over the place, and as a retired person, I am only doing this as a hobby! I feel bad for those still in the industry who either don't co-mingle, or have mountains of adapters!
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  3. sk8rsdad

    sk8rsdad Well-Known Member Premium Member Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    2,428
    Likes Received:
    1,072
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Hey @JD, the industry doesn't use the same definition of standard that you do. To them standard means "a conspicuous object ... used to mark a rallying point especially in battle ...".
     
  4. RonHebbard

    RonHebbard Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    3,451
    Likes Received:
    1,740
    Location:
    Burlington, Ontario, Canada
    @JD Surely you still have the Hubble 2 contact 20 Amp Twistlock to XLR 3 adapters Shure sold you as accessories for your M67 or M68 mixer back in the day when all Bogen PA amps used reverse sexed XLR3's for mic inputs and many concert PA companies were using 20 Amp two contact Hubbell twists for low impedance speaker connectors. Oh the memories. (And OH the dumb plugging errors of the naive.) Likely @TimMc & @Ancient Engineer remember Shure's adapter kit too.
    Toodleoo!
    Ron Hebbard
     
    Ben Stiegler likes this.
  5. TimMc

    TimMc Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    772
    Likes Received:
    1,011
    I recall, without fondness, the era but not the Shure kit. Altec also used male XLR for both input and output at that time.

    The production shops that experienced "lampy burnout" from using L5-20 either reversed the gender of connections or went to a NEMA type that was unlikely to be used on stage.

    To an extent the same thing can happen today in shops that use 12/19 Socapex cable for speaker cables. The smart shops reversed the gender of Soca connectors for the speaker connections making it physically impossible to directly connect a speaker cable to a dimmer rack or power distro.
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  6. RonHebbard

    RonHebbard Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    3,451
    Likes Received:
    1,740
    Location:
    Burlington, Ontario, Canada
    @TimMc and @JD Where are my Socapex / Veam 'Gender Benders' when I need them, and my Pyle National > Soca / Veam too, while were chatting??
    Toodleoo!
    Ron Hebbard
     
  7. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

    Messages:
    6,412
    Likes Received:
    695
    Location:
    Illinois
    In not gettin into "Old School".... Curse those 37pin Pyle!!!

    Plugs/adaptors are rated for 20A. Feed thru is rated for 20A. Circuit breakers feeding the gear is most normally rated for 20A.

    So given a maximum of 2,400 Watts... how many fixtures no matter what type of Powercon can you interfeed before it's the wiring which will melt down before the circuit breaker blows or the plug fails?

    Look to the gauge (12ga) of wire on your first in-line adaptor, and gauge of wire between fixtures as they, the adapters and jumpers are the least amperage/wattage part of the system.


    Your adaptor seems appropriate, but the gauge of wire between them seems like at best 14ga. That's 15Amp/1,800 Watt. That's a huge problem especially if only 16ga. There I would correct your adaptor. Design for the failure... your adaptor will fail before the safety circuit breaker. And remember the first fixture line in to the chain cord gauge of wire. Idiot proof your system in... but we are only pulling... amps... You are now, and than someone with less knowledge than you plugs in something else, and something else etc. Your responsibility if making wiring to provide the proper wiring for the protecton of the circuit. Means 12gauge for all.
     
    Ben Stiegler and RonHebbard like this.
  8. EdSavoie

    EdSavoie Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    311
    Occupation:
    College Student
    Location:
    Windsor, ON, Canada
    Now hang on, I will die on my hill for twistlock on dimmed circuits. ;)
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  9. RonHebbard

    RonHebbard Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    3,451
    Likes Received:
    1,740
    Location:
    Burlington, Ontario, Canada
    @EdSavoie Grounded or non? Old style or new?? With or without cable grips??? Metal or plastic???? Color coded by the manufacturer or all the same color?????
    Copy: @JD
    Toodleoo!
    Ron Hebbard (Who intentionally spelled colour without the 'U' for the benefit of those between Donald's walls.)
     
    coldnorth57 and EdSavoie like this.
  10. BillConnerFASTC

    BillConnerFASTC Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,531
    Likes Received:
    2,599
    Occupation:
    Theatre Consultant
    Location:
    Clayton NY 13624
    If you follow the link you'll see it is indeed 12 ga. But what if it were 14 and just a foot long, after a 100' or more of 12 ga? Much more resistance in that 100' of 12 than in 1' of 14.

    More significant is where in an all LED rig - all I design any more - are 2400 watts found in one circuit? I'd be surprised to see any circuit loaded to half that, let alone a single connector or cable.

    This needs some new thinking so previous practices and regulation can catch up to technology and current practice.

    PS It appears the adaprter was not listed so not on my list anyways.
     
    Ben Stiegler and RonHebbard like this.
  11. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

    Messages:
    6,412
    Likes Received:
    695
    Location:
    Illinois
    Fair observations, except you are already slightly challenged to fit a 12ga wire into any Powercon... a 10ga. into them say for 100' run no way as with stage pin. New thinking in rules of maximum length, education on the subject, and plug design yes.

    Yes, you, I etc. 90% loading max, and would for a LED probably never even 1/2 load the circuit. Hmm, Powercon with feed thru.... In going back to old days, I don't remember a proper stage that had less than 12ga cable in use for jumpers, and given the higher wattage fixtures, would blow a breaker if you connected another fixture in above the rating of the amperage.

    Whips to newer LED fixtures are often better in wire gauge these days - only often, but still range in gauge from say 18ga to 12ga. This includes IEC type fixtures with Powercon. My concern is the primary wire feeding/adapting to the first fixture in a chain is often of a gauge which is insufficient to an amount of fixtures (maxing out at 2400w or not) it might supply given feed thru. Second is the between fixture jumpers in gauge of wire (education on it) requires. Good you found the above was 12ga (non-compliant).

    My fear is un-trained people don't think to add up the wattage/amperage of fixtures plugged into a circuit. Such un-trained staff have no idea of amperages of wire, or even downgrading of cable length at full amperage for gauge of wire to use. How many say Colorado's can you plug into an outlet/circuit? (Yes probably specified in the manual... and expecting professional people read and understand the manual, but other's read at best than gloss over what they don't?) What if such people keep plugging them in because they have feed thru, and DMX data will still feed thru also. How many of these fixtures can be powered up thru also a DMX feed thru? Someone without knowledge about wire gauges and ampericity, would expect you could plug in with factory supplied cords just as many fixtures as you can with the data cable supplying.

    That first fixture plug to fixture adaptor if under the breaker rating, or other jumpers for power, especially if all 120v might be the weak link for say a fire. Some band teacher, or student or etc... won't be doing the math. My concern. Say a 4.8 amp fixtgure @ 120v, but the provided from the factory cable is only 16ga. Say from some installer ok... but later the curch buys more lights in getting provided a crappy coverage. But do they think of installing a new initial jumper to first fixture? No! who would think that a factory supplied cable might fail within the range of factor supplied and say UL listed, and what the circuit breaker might cover in over amperage use of that cable before a breaker trips. As with jumpers between fixtures.....

    Without knowledge in adding the extra fixtures, perhaps they just clip the end of what was supplied with the fixture and install a Powercon of some sort to it also. Another weak link in cable.

    That much less, Home Depot don't sell T-8 Torx Screwdrivers or #1 Pozidrive Screwdrivers, so how is the end user properly terminating their plugs properly assuming proper tention, cord grip proper tension, proper strip length etc.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
    Ben Stiegler and RonHebbard like this.
  12. BillConnerFASTC

    BillConnerFASTC Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,531
    Likes Received:
    2,599
    Occupation:
    Theatre Consultant
    Location:
    Clayton NY 13624
    No cure for stupidity and competence. Or as departed friend said, you can fool proof something but not damn fool proof it.

    10 (LED) fixtures on a circuit. Simple rule. Move on.
     
    Ben Stiegler and RonHebbard like this.
  13. Pie4Weebl

    Pie4Weebl Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    2,465
    Likes Received:
    363
    Location:
    New York City
    *Connects 10, 900 watt Protron Colors in a row*

    WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!?!?
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  14. RonHebbard

    RonHebbard Well-Known Member Premium Member

    Messages:
    3,451
    Likes Received:
    1,740
    Location:
    Burlington, Ontario, Canada
    @Pie4Weebl What has Bill done? Heated the rink on a chilly night and melted a little ice.
    Toodleoo!
    Ron Hebbard
     
  15. EdSavoie

    EdSavoie Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    311
    Occupation:
    College Student
    Location:
    Windsor, ON, Canada
    I don't see what makes LED any different than calculating dimming loads with respect to doubling and such.

    Calculating loads is not exactly hard, and if all your cabling is correctly matched to the circuit's max ampacity, then you can only be as dumb as your breaker allows :p
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  16. BillConnerFASTC

    BillConnerFASTC Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,531
    Likes Received:
    2,599
    Occupation:
    Theatre Consultant
    Location:
    Clayton NY 13624
    So smart competent people have to pay for the dummies?
     
    RonHebbard likes this.
  17. EdSavoie

    EdSavoie Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    567
    Likes Received:
    311
    Occupation:
    College Student
    Location:
    Windsor, ON, Canada
    I don't understand, isn't that what you were insinuating with "10 LEDs per circuit, done"?
     
  18. sk8rsdad

    sk8rsdad Well-Known Member Premium Member Fight Leukemia

    Messages:
    2,428
    Likes Received:
    1,072
    Location:
    Ottawa
    @EdSavoie the difference is in the nature of the load. LEDs typically have switch mode power supplies with big honking capacitors ™ that act as a dead short when initially energized. The inrush currents can be quite severe hence the recommendation to reduce the load below the rating of the cable and breaker.
     
    ship and RonHebbard like this.
  19. BillConnerFASTC

    BillConnerFASTC Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,531
    Likes Received:
    2,599
    Occupation:
    Theatre Consultant
    Location:
    Clayton NY 13624
    I was reacting to Pie's post. I just think that in a world of much smaller fixture wattages, requiring every jumper to be 12 gauge does not make sense. The 10 LED does assume typical LED fixtures.
     
    ship likes this.
  20. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

    Messages:
    6,412
    Likes Received:
    695
    Location:
    Illinois
    Good discussion, I feel that everyting in wiring should be as per the maximized breaker load. In doing it's job tapped off a supply line are not feed thru, should not be considered. If a fixture is feed thru, it should be considered feed thru with X- amount after it. I Know I once connected a bunch of Pinspots by way of cube tap.... Like 28 of them. Less about why not to do than actual end wattage or professional practice.

    Evidence above in those agreeing. This in Powercon jumper maximum jumping between fixtures on a circuit than incudes than a specified maximum length of jumper to them you presented. Hoping you as per our code memeber rep. gets to what above all seemingly agree on. Need to work on rules for these cables. Perhaps something like... if a feeding thru power fixture...., needs to be of sufficient wire gauge to the circuit breaker. I suspect you don't want to have to regulate a gauge of cable due to paying more for those that properly figure out loading? And or amatures should not be using these fixtures.

    "So smart competent people have to pay for the dummies?"... Yes indeed as per NFPA in say similar wiring a kitchen.... or bedroom. Your quoute above should be end result in a changing of view point. I thank you for your service and better knowlege on code and wiring, but think you are wrong and shoudld 180 degree your view point. Consider what you said and as per your porpose in making stuff safe for all you should start working on those code changes needed on this.

    12ga jumpers to the primary fixtures should be the norm, as with store bought or built jumpers. Feeding such fixtures, should comply with larger gauge or as per Soco engineered standards. And fight for the education of tech people so as to somehow train especially where most important.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2019
    RonHebbard likes this.

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice