Trying to build a theater

[smithtrek]

The image I inserted is a preliminary conception of the layout of a community rental theatre for which I am developing a proposal. You'll see that the conventional theatre section is the only part of the building that has details drawn up. Ideas so far for the experimental theatre section incudes a stage with moveable, attachable platforms and parts to it and an audience that could possibly surround most of the stage.

I am very interested in feedback from this group. One concern is the height of this building. It's only about 20 feet. (It used to be a grocery store.) Would the Theatre be practical at that height? What height would a fly tower typically need?

Also, what is a good use for those triangle spaces either side of the front rows? Here is the image. I hope you can open it. View attachment Conceptual Floor Plan.pdf

 

[JLNorthGA]

One concern is the height of this building. It's only about 20 feet. (It used to be a grocery store.) Would the Theatre be practical at that height? What height would a fly tower typically need?

Also, what is a good use for those triangle spaces either side of the front rows? Here is the image. I hope you can open it. View attachment 8607

Many theatre have operated without fly towers. You have to make adaptations - but it can be done. Your main drape would have to be a traveler. You'd have to rely more on scenes which are on wagons if necessary -as you couldn't fly in drops.

But to answer your question - it depends on how large your proscenium opening is. If your proscenium opening is say 15' H x 48' W, your fly tower would have to be on the order of 5' higher than double your proscenium height - so 15' H x 2 = 30', 30' + 5' = 35' H. Actually 10' would be probably more in line. That way you could use a nice tall drop that was comfortably larger than your proscenium opening.

Your triangle spaces make for reasonable storage space. At least we use ours that way - but we have walls in that area.

 

[museav]

I realize this is just a preliminary plan but because it often happens I'll point out that it does not seem to address exiting, mechanical and electrical spaces, general storage/janitorial space, etc. As the plans are further developed those can be incorporated but waiting until then can also lead to sometimes having to either modify what you already have and/or employ expensive/awkward/complex solutions. It's usually easier to start out with too much ancillary space and be able to reduce it than to have too little and have to find more.

In particular, think about restroom space. You are greatly increasing the potential occupancy and you want restrooms that not only properly serve that potential occupancy as required by code but that will also work with the schedule and traffic flow of events and are convenient and easy to find.

Since it often comes up with adaptive reuse of similar spaces, while you may have large, long span clear span areas for the roof structure, is that structure capable of carrying much additional load? Adding a catwalk, theatrical lighting, speakers, rigging, etc. could be well beyond the capability of a roof structure that was not originally carrying such loads and that could be an expensive thing to fix, as well as potentially making the clear height even less that it is now. Speaking of which, is the 20' the clear height below any structure or the height to the deck?

Have you verified the need for and viability of a pit? One aspect is the practicality of constructing a pit and you might want to have a subsurface investigation performed before even showing a pit as a possibility. Another aspect is that a pit means not just the pit itself but also appropriate access including life safety considerations and ADA accessibility. A pit also suggests certain types of performances which in turn could affect the rest of the space. A related story, I was working with someone planning to turn an old grocery store into an event facility (sound familiar?) and they apparently had ties with the Atlanta Symphony so at one point they decided they wanted to be able to have symphonic, orchestral or ensemble performances in the new main space, which in order to properly address acoustically led to the option of raising the roof 20' or more or adding a $250,000+ electronic acoustic enhancement system. Or there was the project in Florida where the pit was in sandy soil and below the water table, thus requiring all sorts of special construction provisions. The point is that the existing site conditions and structure can have a significant impact what is practical to do and support so it might be beneficial to determine any such issues as soon as possible.

Also related to the previous use, rooftop mechanical equipment or even units mounted exposed within the interior may be common for grocery stores but aren't necessarily appropriate for the envisioned uses. A grocery store would also typically approach the entire main space as one zone for HVAC while you would likely want or even need multiple zones for the different spaces. So you may be looking at some major changes to the mechanical systems and that could require dedicated equipment space that would also want to be acoustically isolated from spaces such as the two theatres. And similar for the electrical systems, not only will you need to verify if the building serve and internal distribution will suffice but there is almost certainly some related space required. And these are not necessarily small spaces with specific clearances, fire rated wall construction, etc. typically defined by code.

What do you envision the Scene Shop being and how do you see it operating? Is it just an open space with power, etc. or are you actually envisioning a functioning Scene Shop that would be available to users? The latter seems to entail numerous practical and liability issues.

I don't think you want "Make-Up" (Dressing Rooms?) and the Scene Shop directly open to the Stage, especially if those are potentially shared with other spaces. Which brings up that if the two theatres were in use at the same time do you plan to share the BoH space? Or would you limit it to only having one of the two spaces in use at any time, not just for performances but also for rehearsals, set construction, etc.

The operable partition adds a great deal of flexibility but just be aware that an operable partition of that size that might support a meeting space and an Experimental Theatre operating simultaneously is likely to be very expensive.

Maybe this helps show that there are a lot of things that may seem minor now but that could have a major impact later on.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Brad brings up a lot of good points. Its a start. At the risk of sounding self serving, you need a theatre consultant. Noise, circulation, practicality of section (I start a design in section and develop a plan from that) all need attention to fundamentals. 400-500 seats in a 20' clear height room is a challenge. hopefully stage and middle to last row can be at current floor level and seats forward of the row on grade can be excavated for.

 

[derekleffew]

... At the risk of sounding self-serving, you need a theatre consultant. ...

1. "Never ask a barber if he thinks you need a haircut."
2. OTOH, Bill, you're not the first in this thread to suggest that professional, adult-supervision is needed/desirable/required. And even if you were the first, that would be okay too.

 

[smithtrek]

Brad brings up a lot of good points. Its a start. At the risk of sounding self serving, you need a theatre consultant. Noise, circulation, practicality of section (I start a design in section and develop a plan from that) all need attention to fundamentals. 400-500 seats in a 20' clear height room is a challenge. hopefully stage and middle to last row can be at current floor level and seats forward of the row on grade can be excavated for.

Yes, a Theatre consultant is definitely on the list of recommendations. I don't personally have the funds for one . The purpose of this plan I'm putting together is to convince investors to put forth enough money to do a more thorough marketing study and get more accurate estimates. After that, the interst level of the investors will help determine whether that building is the right one. It will definitely need some room added on the roof after extra supports. But all of your tips are very helpful, because I need to sound knowledgeable if I want to gain the trust of any investor. Thanks!

 

[smithtrek]

Brad,
Again, big thanks for your input. I have actually made changes to the floor plan based on some of your recommendations and that of others in this thread. The Experimental Theatre has less floor space for audience now because it has its own back stage, dressing room and scene shop. The restrooms are moved around so they are away from the main theatre stage a bit more. And I will consider your comments about the scene shop. I will need to familiarize myself with the risks there. Same with the pit comments you made. What is "BoH" space by the way?
I almost feel guilty taking advantage of you all on this thread like I'm getting professional consulting for free. I hope to get several investors interested enough to pay for some professional consulting. Your tips here will be extremely valuable help this effort along in a good direction if this progresses.

 

[museav]

BoH is "Back of House" or basically the non-public spaces versus FoH or "Front of House" that is the public spaces.

 

[artdeco18]

As a long time venue administrator, I would reiterate what a couple of the posters have mentioned about including operating costs as a part of the project plan. Whether you are building new or converting a space, the capital costs are not going to be your biggest problem because they are often a one-time expense. There is a brand new community performing arts centre in the next town that opened a couple of years ago. During the concept and construction phase, the community did all of the committee things and hired HPH to consult and I admit that it is a jewel of a facility. However, recently, city council expressed outrage because the theatre which was supposed to be working towards a "cost recovery" model came back to council looking for a $1 million annual subsidy. Everyone was shocked and surprised and the fiscal conservatives screamed bloody murder.. the theatre board tried to spin the issue into the economic benefits the theatre provides (a conversation for another day), but the real issue is that despite the available evidence, they really didn't have a clear grasp of what their operating costs were going to be. But those costs are essential to the operation and so the money must be found.

Staff are obvious costs.. someone to do contracts and process them, accounting, custodial, technical, building maintenance are huge costs because the people that do those things usually need to eat in order to be effective. Consumables like gel, lamps, tape, stage paint... toilet paper, paper towels, garbage bags cleaners and all of the little things that don't necessarily cost a lot but really add up over the course of a year. The other big ones that come to mind are power which goes through the roof once you turn the stage lights on and in the summer the air conditioning. Gas for heating in the winter is also huge. Did I mention insurance? And even though the building and equipment may be new, there is the ongoing cost of repairs and maintenance to the building and equipment.

Getting the building built is great, but operating the building is the real challenge because your only revenue stream are user groups. You can fiddle with them a bit by charging a box office fee, and making technical charges separate, but the bottom line is that a $1 per ticket service charge adds $1 to the cost of the ticket and even though it's the ticket buyer that is paying the charge, it increases the ticket price. You can make technical charges separate (as most facilities do), but that too adds to the cost to the user and when you realize that box office is usually their only source of paying for things (keeping in mind that the venue is only one of the costs incurred by the user) is box office, the producers revenue potential is limited by ticket sales and capped by seating capacity. The long and short of it is that there is a limit to what the user can pay for the venue and whatever it is, must provide the means to provide the money to operate.

Once you get into "multi-use" community spaces, costs go even higher. One nighters (most functions at a "roadhouse" facility) are horrifically expensive to service from a venue point of view because of the huge cost involved in the set up and resetting and the limit the user can afford to pay. That is why every community facility I have seen operates with a subsidy. Quite often, a city council will hide costs by providing utilities, insurance, accounting and such as a part of a central operating budget model, but that doesn't help the venue when the parent group (city council, school, etc) needs to trim their budget.

Too often, committees and consultants (not to denegrate either) over estimate revenues, underestimate expenses and once the venue is opening, the reality comes as a shock. You can sometimes compromise on building and technical design and they become challenges, but theatre people can be very innovative in finding work arounds... but the operating costs are generally not negotiable.

So, my suggestion is that when you visit other facilities, take the time to meet with the venue administrators to talk plainly about their operating budgets. Because of their scope and on-going nature I really don't think your proposal is complete unless it includes a reasonable and sustainable operating strategy.

On the other hand, once the facility is built, shutting it down is not usually an option. However, it's a counterproductive strategy to take because it builds lots of stress and animosity into the relationships of those involved.