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Types of Lamps and Their Differences

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by SAWYeR, Mar 23, 2007.

  1. SAWYeR

    SAWYeR Active Member

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    Hey all,
    I was just wondering, what exactly is the difference between a standard Source Four lamp, a Tungsten lamp from say, a MAC TW1 or VL1000, and an Arc Lamp. I know it has to do with the gasses and other things inside the lamp itself. I really want to know the difference between an incandescent Source Four lamp and Tungsten. Why use one over the other? Color differences? I'd like to know.
     
  2. SteveB

    SteveB Well-Known Member

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    This is like the scene in My Cousin Vinny, where Joe Pesci asks Maria Tomei on the witness stand "So tell me Miss Vito, Why doesn't the defences case hold water"

    I'm also guessing your a troll for Ship, if not Ship himself, logging in as a different user, 'cause here it comes.......

    Grinning in Brooklyn

    Steve B.
     
  3. Van

    Van CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Hmm..... I had the same suspicions, <Van looks expectantly to the wings awaiting the Grand entrance.>

    :mrgreen:
     
  4. koncept

    koncept Active Member

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    i didnt think of him being Ship with anohter user name but this is definately a thread with his name written all over it...
     
  5. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    The quick and dirty answer to your question (which I may be proved wrong by Ship on) is that a Source Four HPL type lamp is a tungsten lamp. Tungsten is the metal that is used in the filament. It is also a type of incandescent lamp.

    Dictionary Definition:
    Incandescent -
    • emitting light as a result of being heated
    • (of an electric light) containing a filament that glows white-hot when heated by a current passed through it

    The biggest differences between say and HPL lamp and the lamps for the TW1 or VL1000 (neither of which I have seen) are most likely how the filament is laid out in the lamp, and the power requirements of each.

    As for the difference between an incandescent and arc lamp, the arc lamp emits light from an arc of electricity crossing an air gap between two electrodes. Think of a welding machine and how it emits light from the electric arc between the filler wire/stick and the pieces being welded, it is a similar idea.
     
  6. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Everybody knows I write nothing like how this question was asked - it is physically impossible for me to do so given the language, concepts and terms wondered about for me to put them together into a question such as it. Tungsten other than by way of describing a filament material for instance is not in my vocabulary... Those attempting to answer the question should substitute the term Tungsten for "Tungsten-Halogen" lamp in further helping refine the answer. Often in the long past when "halogen" or also these days normally called "quartz" lamps started as a term, it was Tungsten-Halogen as a term used. Likely given the lamps wondered about, one should both refine how it's both tungsten as per a household light bulb and has the halogen gas effect going on. Possible that just as most have shortened Tungsten-Halogen to halogen, this person has shortened it to tungsten or does not know about the second part of the description. That's the extent if of help I'll chime in...

    This much less it was by far too short.

    Nope, believe it or not I do have other things in life to do than ask questions that I might answer as a concept.

    Have not read the answers so far, I'll PM my own so as not to effect other people's advice but also lend a hand. So if you were itching to answer but thinking that instead, Ship will be along... go for it with your answers. This is in some subtext a form of question perhaps I should not answer.


    At the moment, I'm working on the XBO 3000w/HSLA.ofr lamp specs, concerns about it's p30/s30 burning position in a moving light, and gleeful that I saved where I work $570.00 on buying two of the lamps not even in the US yet at this point. Now just also have to figure out why a XBO 3000 lamp says in the lamp specs that it's a 6,000w lamp yet it is not described as a XBO 6000... This much less further understand the dual 3Kw/4.5Kw rating of the fixture which could be related to the wattage rating and description code in the former question.

    Get it? Lamp specs. and 1929 version of Fulchs to read - impersonate someone starting to wonder about lamps and asking a question that in theory I would have an answer for? Nope, got my own questions I'm asking to worry about.

    This much less working a 12 hour day? Gimmie some credit.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2007
  7. Van

    Van CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Hmmmm Me thinks thou doth protest too much ! :mrgreen:

    See now I was going to point out that pretty mch all lamps from the ones in your house up to the hpl in you s4's are all tungsten lamps, in that they all use tungsten as a filament. Early on Edison < or his lackeys> expirented with all sorts of materials until they finally found tungsten to be the strongest longest lasting filament that was practical for use in the incandescent light bulb. Incandescent is your first clue as to the difference between an incandescent and arc lamp. in an incandescent lamp the filament glows white hot thus producing light or incandescening. This process is no different than heating a stick of iron in a furnace until it glows, except the energy is provided by electrical resistance rather than coal burning < 'course if you are in an area of the country where they use coal fired electrical plants I guess you could say it really is no different at all :mrgreen: > An Arc lamp Typically uses a much higher voltage so that a "spark" or arc is maintained across a gap between two electrodes. Go drag your feet across the carpet then touch your sisters nose, Viola'! You just created an arc, light emitted by the excitation of a gas < air > by a High voltage low amperage current jumping between two points of space, you finger her nose, < now say you're sorry, Van made you do it>
    Now an arc lamp in a ML is basically the same thing if you look closely you'll see an outer envelope and an inner one. Ignore the outer one it's boring. The cool part is the inner one where you'll notice there is no connection between the two wire thingys comming in from each end of the envelope. Now it's quite possible those electrodes are made of Tungsten < ship help me out here > but the important thing is that the envelope is full of gas. Different types of lamps use different types of gas, mercury vapor, sodium vapor, All the halogen gases < those are the ones over on the right side of the periodic table of elements> Different gasses will all "glow" or incandesce at different wavelengths resulting in the different "color temperatures" of various lamps. The advantage of Arc lamps is thier high color temperatures, that is they are very white. if you look at the thread going on right now about CMY versus RBG color mixing you'll see why it's important that in a Moving light where CMY mixing is employed it is very important that your "source light" be as close to pute white as possible, whereas in a S4 which youtypically employee in the RBG mixing method you can get away with a cooler color temperature.

    Now there are a ton more things about Tungsten Halide lamps that are interesting and you can look up some of Ships old posts to look into those, He's a real expert I'm a hack when it comes to stuff like this. Hope that helps and anybody feel free to expand or slam what I just posted.

    essay question for extra credit:
    What are the main differences between light bulb in your house and an HPL in your S4, if they both use a tungsten filament ?
     
  8. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    I think your getting a little confused by some of the marketing for the T1W and VL1000. They brag a lot about tungsten like it's this amazing new thing. In fact it's just the opposite. It was only new to Thomas Edison. The trick is that just about every other moving light out there is using an arc lamp so these instruments are new and amazing because they are using an old technology lamp instead.

    Van did a pretty good job explaining how the two styles of lamps work. But he left out the "why anybody cares" part. The answer is Color Temperature. Have you ever noticed that there is white light and then there is WHITE LIGHT. Think about what the world looks like outside at noon vs. what it looks like at sunset. A sheet of white paper held up to the sunlight is still white... but it gets much more amber as the sunset progresses. This is an example of color temperature. A household lamp, a fluorescent tube in an office, a Source4, and those annoying HID blue headlights on cars... are all white light but the color of the white varies quite a bit. In the same way, the Arc lamps in moving lights are much higher in color temperature (whiter with a hint of blue) than a standard tungsten filament lamp.

    So if you are doing a show with a bunch of conventional lights but you want to add a couple of Mac 2K's as well you have a problem. The colors won't match because they are a different color of white. It's like doing a light plot using a car with standard quartz halogen headlights and a car with the new HID headlights they just wouldn't mix well. There are ways to fix it like dropping in some "CTO" gel which will filter out the blueish white and make it look more orange. You can also put "CTB" gel in all your conventionals to make the color look more like the Mac 2k's. Many of the high end moving lights actually have CTO features built in to help with this problem. So the VL1000 and T1W are special because they have all the moving light features but the same color temperature of the other conventional fixtures so they will blend better. Keep your eyes open and you'll see degree notes in relation to lamps... that's telling you the color temperature. Also if you go to the hardware store there is a whole new series of lights that they brag about how it looks so much whiter than a normal household bulb. If you look at the glass it's a little blue. They've basically painted CTB filter on the glass.

    Not wanting to go on too long, I'll leave it to you to do some research on "Color temperature" and it's measurement system "Degrees Kelvin" if you want to know more. Or perhaps someone else want's to take those topics on.
     
  9. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Van, parts of that seem a little convoluted. Halogen gases are group 7 (or 17) elements; Fluorine, Chlorine, Bromine, Iodine, and Astatine. They are used in halogen globes - whether those globes are tungsten - halogen depends one would imagine if they have tungsten filaments or something else... On the same note, a real QI would have Quartz somewhere and be filled with Iodine gas. On the other hand, discharge (or arc if you prefer) lamps are filled with gases such as sodium vapour, mercury vapour, xenon gas, etc. Metal halide lamps have salts added to the contents of the gas to significantly boost output. Depending on what gases etc. you have, you can manipulate colour, luminous output, etc.
    Just thought it was a little unclear.
     
  10. koncept

    koncept Active Member

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    i also thought the gasses on the right were used in some neon signs to create those colors? I could be completely off here...

    I think this has to do with the operating temperature and the length/number of filaments in the hpl. in a incandecent (exculding three ways) there is a single filament connected to two wires taht attach to a base. in an hpl the fillament appears to resemble more of a spring and go up and inside of the globe severals times before reconnecting to the leads that power it. with regard to operating temperature the lights in you home have a lower color temperature making them more yellowish? while the lights used in stage lighting are hotter in color temperature and produce a more orange light.
     
  11. Van

    Van CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Chris your'e right I got my tongue over my Eyetooth and couldn't see what I was saying. I was confusing Halogens gases and Noble Gases.
     
  12. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    The two do live next door to one another...
     
  13. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    hmm to Van's "Now it's quite possible those electrodes are made of Tungsten < ship help me out here>" question. I would also have to look this up. What are at very least the electrodes in general as opposed to the Cathode and Anadode coated with much less made out of?

    I would start with the Osram free PDF book on arc source lamps. Nickel plating? Why or why not in further refining this sub-topic?

    This much less halogen verses Noble Gasses Chris 15 and Van have raised. Urr, what?

    Now that's knowing your lamps. Kudos for both.

    13 pages in reply to this question on my part. Best off line PM reply no doubt. WE strayed a lot in answer from the specific topic. Anyone interested in an off line reply can request off line. Over all in my opinion for the most part some major fetures of concept but not enough in overall concepts in why these are very good choices for different lamps.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2007
  14. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Now noble gases have more to do with lamps than one may think at first glance. See the common off the shelf incandescent globe is filled with argon gas if I'm remembering correctly. Argon is a noble gas. So is Krypton, used when one wants a bulb for say a torch which needs to be mechanically resistant. Xenon is another noble gas. And with that, we get quite bright lamps. Neon is also a noble gas, and we know about neon light's don't we... They are actually a form of discharge lamp. Rounding out the noble gases are Helium & Radon.

    And some of those noble gases can also be components of discharge lamps. Will someone confirm or refute me here, are stock standard fluorescent tubes filled with Argon?
     
  15. SteveB

    SteveB Well-Known Member

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  16. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Now that is a good reply along with vaild statement of what they are constructed out of.

    What are they coated with and why?
     
  17. SAWYeR

    SAWYeR Active Member

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    I'm not Ship, because he just sent me a 13 page Private Message on everything I could possibly ever want to or need to know on lamps.:lol:
     
  18. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    sorry, fingers got dancing...

    Hopefully it was of use in understanding conceopts. This much less helps you be able to read the lamp specs for the lamps and tell the difference yourself.

    Long... yep, written over like two nights with two completely different approaches to the question.

    No doubt some stuff left off or thoughts left not so much explained such as color temperature of an arc lamp having a lot to do with radial telescope type markings of distant suns. Science....

    Still, hopefully of use.
     
  19. SAWYeR

    SAWYeR Active Member

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    Most definitly. Thanks a lot!
     
  20. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    This side line of off line opinionion seperate from the current discussion on the topic. Bring it back home in the discussion of noble gasses and other concepts - urr, I believe it's inert gasses, not noble gasses... sorry in me also changing my terms.

    None the less, in getting back to the origional question, what does a noble/inert gas have to do with the differences between these lamps chosen in question? Finalize the concepts, much less mention the major difference not mentioned so far between each of these lamps requested to know about.

    Interesting study into lamps, time to bring it home further in refining concepts for the answer and finding the answer if of help while sitting on the side lines.

    A few months after this discussion is dead, SAWYeR is at his option able to post the concepts I brought up in my own PM opinion so as to liven up the discussion again perhaps. Until than, lots of concepts and well stated details, I'm also interested in where they lead. Where are other posters in this discussion? Learn/help.
     

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