Loudspeakers upgrade in a (gasp!) gym

[NHStech]

At our church we are looking to upgrade our speakers (Radio Shack specials) in our gym. They presently sound old and tinny, like everything is coming off a cassette tape (remember those?), even when it is a cd or a person speaking. The gym is about 80' x 55' with about an 18' ceiling. There are tiles on the ceiling, and 4x8 sound absorbing panels (homemade – used carpet on a piece of plywood and put a frame around it)interspersed on the walls, which are plastered . Right now the speakers are hanging from the ceiling at about 16' high against the wall at what would be the 10-second line on the basketball court (as opposed to behind one of the baskets). They are two speakers and are pointing so the tops are basically parallel with the ceiling (yes, parallel) at about 45 degrees off the center line(which would be the 10-second line on the basketball court). Ideal situation would be for professionals to come in and set up a new system, but we do not have the money. Instead, I am looking to simply upgrade the speakers, point them a little more downward. We are not looking to hold concerts in there or anything. A few wedding receptions, perhaps, but the reinforcement is mostly for speaking. Do you have any suggestions for speakers? Please remember I am trying to upgrade so people can hear and understand. I was thinking about 10” speakers so the low end doesn't blow people away because of the echo. Then I got to thinking about array, but I am not sure if the horizontal spread would be good enough, and I am not sure of cost in that situation, anyway. The mixer we use is a basic Yamaha all-in-one with 200 watts per channel. It is plenty loud, it is just that the speakers are ancient and how they arranged. Any thoughts on this arrangement?

 

[museav]

Any thoughts on this arrangement?

Yes, get a pro. I know you said that you can't afford a pro but that usually means that you also can't afford mistakes. In any case, you are apparently talking about flying speakers overhead so if nothing else that rigging has to be properly addressed and unless you have someone with the proper qualifications, experience and tools (and potentially appropriate liability insurance, etc.) to fly the speakers then that is best not even considered.

Other than that, how do you use the system? Do you use it for sporting events or just for special events? Do you need the system to be two channel/stereo? What is the audience area, is it a limited area opposite the speakers or the the entire floor? Is all the seating at floor level or are there bleachers? Do you currently have any system processing or EQ? What exists for speaker cabling and might that need to be replaced? Is there a budget?

 

[cutlunch]

I agree with Museav about needing someone trained to change the speakers fixings etc.

I was wondering which way the people sit in the gym?
Do they sit along the long side of the court?
Do they sit both sides?

This is a case where the church leaders need to be told that unless they spend the money to do it right then any money they spend will be wasted.

Although this applies to lighting I once spec'ed a church for new lighting.

They didn't have a suitable ladder to change the lighting around. So I said that if you don't have ladder it's a waste to spend money on new lighting gear you can't change around. They brought a new ladder as well as the new lighting gear.

If your church doesn't already, you might like to get them to subscibe to the "Church Production" Magazine which is free to churches in the USA.
Church Production Magazine

It covers things like Audio, Video, Lighting etc.
Some of the articles can be read on-line it has equipment reviews, how to articles, how we did it articles etc. It might give you ideas for this problem.

There's articles like this one I have linked below that talks about wise use of money which ties in with you want to do.
Church Production Magazine Article -- Equipment Planning and Purchasing

And if you don't understand something you read you, know you always have people at Controlbooth to help you.

Brent

 

[NHStech]

When I say gym, I am really talking multi-purpose room. It is pretty much a rubberized gm floor and that is it. There are no bleachers as there is no room. Chairs are set around the perimeter of the court and everyone holds their toes in so as not to get stepped on! We use it for sporting events as well as special events. But, mainly for speaking. No eqing other than that which is on the portable board/amp. The speaker wire is the normal home speaker wire, but then has been rigged to hook up to normal av speaker wire with 1/4 inch ends so they could be inserted to the powered mixer.
I have been a subscriber to church production for about 3 years. Great mag. And I agree that ideally implementing sound as part of the architecture is a must to the point where I have sold my pastor on this in the event our sanctuary expands, but this thing in the gym is just meant to be a quick fix. We don't spend enough time in there to merit spending a small fortune in the gym.

 

[Morpheus]

I know you don't want to spend a fortune, but.... do it right or don't do it at all.
(At least do it right in terms of rigging).
For replacing speakers... hmm. Depending on the space and how you use it, hang a few small speakers (such as renkus-heinz sg61's) pointed at the audience area (maybe 2 per long and 1 per short side?). Also, get a real amp and board; it seems to me those self-powered eq's are worth crap.

 

[museav]

A simple example of the issues is that a system that has to overcome the noise from spectators and participants to be clearly heard may need to be capable of 20dB or more greater output than a system used just for speech reinforcement to a quiet audience. And the term "multipurpose" usually infers either more money or more compromises, aspects such as covering multiple listener configurations are more difficult to address.

 

[NHStech]

While I appreciate and agree that a pro should be doing things so as to save money in the long term and have a better sound overall, everyone is speaking in terms of what should be done, but I am talking of what will be done. No disrespect intended to anyone, as it is hard to "hear" voice inflection in a posting like this. The bottom line is that our deacon board may approve several hundred dollars to upgrade the speakers and wires in the gym. They will NOT approve several thousand dollars necessary to upgrade everything, have everything analyzed and eq'ed, etc. So, my question is about this particular arrangement - I need to know on the basis of what I have to work with, not what I am wishing for. On the basis of the fact we are dealing with a gym, are 10 inch speakers better than 12 or 15? Should the speakers still stay at the height near the ceiling or be lowered? Any recommendations on non-powered speakers that stand out as good and reliable for primarily speaking, with a little bit of music thrown in once in a great while? Any other thoughts?

Like I said, I apologize if I sound petulant or demanding. I am not trying to be, and I certainly appreciate all the ideas posted thus far. Perhaps I don't know enough, as being considerably inexperienced in this field, and you may have to tell me I am being over-simplistic. Maybe you can't answer in what you feel is an adequate way given the conditions. If that is the best answer, than so be it, but any thoughts you can give me to improve the situation at present that I can actually take to the board would be appreciated. Thanks.

 

[SHARYNF]

Sadly with no disrespect, but you get what you pay for, and your facility is currently suffering from just the approach you are intending to take for this upgrade

I guess taking the reverse position, while I am sure no one will take it as disrespect, the fact remains that just sticking up a bunch of speakers with no plan no analysis is a total waste of money, and does show a lack of understanding of just what advice the folks that do this for a living are trying to offer.

It is more complicated than you seem to want to believe, and there is almost a certainty that the money you spend will be totally wasted. Designing a sound system for a gym that will work (ie team/refs/crowd) can hear what is going in is not simple.

So either convince some professional to donate their time to do a proper design, or don't waste your money and wait until you do have the funds to do the job.

Just asking for a recommendation of some speakers to stick up around the place is not going to work, as I said Gyms are extremely difficult to work in to get any sort of intelligible sound

Sharyn
'

 

[Morpheus]

Well, personally, I like the Renkus-Heinz speakers (Link Here), but if it's just powered by that Yamaha... some JBL's might be decent.

Just remember that the thing you cannot compromise on (as in, if you can't do it, then don't at all) is get them professionally hung/rigged.

 

[SHARYNF]

This is where I think we make a mistake:

Lets look at the likely size of the venue

It could be a gym that has a basketball court, with bleachers on all sides so you are looking at a room that is about 150 by 100, it probably has a metal roof 30 feet high, with metal truss, and the walls are probably concrete, and the floor is probably wood

so we have a high reverberant space, and Speaking needs a low a decay level as possible.

If we have bleachers on all sides, we have the issue of coverage of each group of spectators and the team, so do we go with a center hung system? now we get into all the rigging issues

If we want speech only then we typically will go with highly directional mid range horns of some type in some sort of array for coverage, I we want music then we need to add a broader range of audio response

The Problem with "I like" is it is horses for courses, what works great in one situation does not work at all in another.

Personally I think it is going to take a lot more than "some 10 or 12 inch speakers spread around" and no matter what you get, if you want it to work even if all the design work is done for free is not going to be a couple of hundred dollars. Just the safe rigging of what ever you get is going to be expensive.


Let say it is a smaller venue, with spectators only on two sides, where you MIGHT be able to use wall mounted systems, you are going to need wall mounts that are adjustable and safe, and these alone are going to be expensive


I think we make a mistake when we reinforce the concept that you just need to go down list of favorites, some how stick them up and you have a solution.


Analogies are always bad but it is like sending your doctor an email saying I feel lousy, and I only have a few hundred dollars to spend, tell me what I can run down to Walmart and buy to make me feel well.

if this stuff were easy then there would not be so many horrible sounding systems out there

Sharyn

 

[Morpheus]

Sharyn: Yea, you're right. My post was mainly intended to proved some suggestions for speakers, obviously the choosing of the speakers themselves (and placement) would be up to the person in charge of the installation (to look at horn angles, reflections, etc. etc). I was going along the "looking at it realistically" part

NHStech: I guess after Sharyn's post there really isn't much more to say, unless you provide us with drawings of the space
And to be perfectly honest, if the budget will be under $1K... you can't get much... unless you go for an all-in-one (excuse me while i throw up in my mouth a little)... and at that rate, you're better off just waiting until you can spend the money to do it right completely.


Maybe, instead of asking for money to upgrade this year, ask for some money to be saved, so that you'll have more in the future.

 

[museav]

This is where I think we make a mistake:

Lets look at the likely size of the venue

It could be a gym that has a basketball court, with bleachers on all sides so you are looking at a room that is about 150 by 100, it probably has a metal roof 30 feet high, with metal truss, and the walls are probably concrete, and the floor is probably wood

Actually, no need to make guesses as the dimensions and some of the finishes were identified. 80'x55' with an 18' ceiling. "Rubberized" floor, apparently an acoustical tile ceiling and plaster walls with some 4'x8' carpet on plywood panels (which realistically are typically minimally effective and should not be considered 'acoustical' panels).

The room use is apparently multipurpose ranging from sports events to weddings and other special events. Seating is apparently loose seating around the perimeter of the court area, no bleachers. It has not been said but I would guess that this seating arrangement applies to sports events and that special events might include seating on the main floor area.

My concern is the apparent intent to proceed based on a seemingly randomly assigned budget and regardless of whether the result is safe or effective. I believe that it is pretty simple, not being able to afford to do something right does not justify doing it improperly. There are too many examples of people getting into a cycle of spending what they have only to soon be back in the same situation. People probably don't want to see this become yet another example, thus the responses.

There may indeed sometimes areas where compromises can be made but safety is not one of those. If you can't use a speaker intended to be flown and rig it properly then flying speakers overhead should not be attempted regardless of how much money you have or what you want to do. Beyond that, you stated that you wanted to improve the situation and "Please remember I am trying to upgrade so people can hear and understand.", so I am guessing that there are expectations beyond simply spending the money or getting new speakers. If simply spending the money or getting new speakers are the only goals then what speakers you get should not matter that much. Otherwise, system performance factors such as coverage, level and intelligibility need to be considered and will determine the products and the application of them that support the goals defined. Modeling and detailed prediction may not be justified but some consideration of the resulting system performance is probably necessary and whether the speaker has a 10", 12" or 15" driver is likely further down the list of factors to consider (and even then may be more a factor of the specific product).

To be blunt, "several hundred dollars" is probably not going to be sufficient to achieve the upgrade in intelligibility you desire. Flying speakers so they are aimed down at the audience would likely help but is not something to be attempted without the proper products and skills, which would almost certainly exceed the budget. Maybe if you had a better acoustical environment or had a more limited use and area to cover, but trying to accommodate multiple events in that room and achieve good intelligibility is likely going to take more than spending a few hundred dollars to throw something at it. So either the goals or budget probably need to be revised.

 

[MarshallPope]

Something you may want to consider, rather than flying speakers, may be adjustable wall brackets. Something like this might allow for better flexibility, as the speakers could be aimed towards different configurations of audience seating. It would not be ideal, but it would likely be much cheaper than flying them and still be workable. I have seen this used in an indoor football practice field and it worked alright. I'm not sure of the speaker model, but I'm pretty sure they were the white plastic JBLS of some sort. I believe they used 10 speakers for a 90 yard field with a 50 foot(?) ceiling.

 

[SHARYNF]

Actually, no need to make guesses as the dimensions and some of the finishes were identified. 80'x55' with an 18' ceiling. "Rubberized" floor, apparently an acoustical tile ceiling and plaster walls with some 4'x8' carpet on plywood panels (which realistically are typically minimally effective and should not be considered 'acoustical' panels).

Sorry Missed that, a standard Basketball court is 94x50 with some high schools 84 feet x 50
I missed that it was more of a multipurpose room. Point I was trying to make in addition to Brad's excellent points was size vs location of the folks who needed to hear, announcement vs music etc

Sharyn

 

[NHStech]

Sorry, it has been a few days since I have had a chance to check this thread.
So, Sharyn, what you (and many of the others) are saying is that the best recommendation I could make to the deacon board is to start saving some money to get a professional install, as it would be a complete waste to simply replace the hanging speakers presently there with newer, better hanging speakers directed a little better using an spl meter or something. Is this correct? Also, Morpheus, I believe the originals are hung by church members, not professional installers.

 

[SHARYNF]

That is exactly what I am saying. You are in a complex environment, and getting someone who really can access the situation and make recommendations based on their experience and being on site will make all the difference. It MIGHT be possible to get someone to donate their time to do this, some firms might be willing.

Sharyn

 

[museav]

It is getting a little old but the basic concepts still apply, http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/3Times.pdf. The general concept Jim presents also apply to spaces other than churches. The main idea is that good intents do not always equate to good results, there has to also be a sufficient level of knowledge and expertise applied. The Owner or End User may have the knowledge of the application but not the expertise to develop and implement a successful solution. Others may have the expertise but knowledge of the application required, which often means face-to-face meetings and in the case of existing facilities typically a physical site survey.

You may be able to aim any speakers a bit with a meter or by ear but unless they are the right speaker(s) in the right place(s) that could well be a matter of making the best of what you have rather than of getting any desired result. There is more to selecting a speaker than the woofer size, especially where intelligibility, or understanding what is said, is critical you want to look at things like how well the speaker gets sound to the desired areas while avoiding having sound going where you don't want it or interacting with the room, whether the speaker is compatible with and can provide sufficient level with the amplifier you have, etc. And even if you have the right speakers in the right locations, there are then question such as are they properly installed so as to provide flexibility in aiming and to be safe? Are there possibly other things to be done in conjunction with any changes in the speakers that might benefit you?

I think that one issue here is that people best able to provide good input regarding the speakers are also likely to be the most adamant regarding their being properly installed.