upgrade of lighting control board - need advice

[topshelf1227]

I was given the word from my boss that my venue was approved grant money to upgrade all tech equipment. I am the lighting tech in the venue and am looking to upgrade our equipment.

Here's what we have:

ETC Express 125/250 board
6 Elation power spot 575 ML fixtures
Electralite Intelligent lighting Control board
92 stage lights -including 3 color strip lights above stage (RGBA), 2 Par cans above stage, and 40 ETC Source Fours on the front bar and side bars.

The ETC runs the stage lights and the Electralite runs the elation lights.

Our theater is a small multipurpose venue that presents shows 2-3 times a week in a variety of genres: theater shows, comedy shows, children's theater, and concerts (Most of our work is in concerts) - jazz, rock, adult contemporary, classical, country rock, etc. The seating capacity is 261. The venue was a former movie theater.

Some of the acts we've had include: Roger McGuinn, The Subdudes, Constantine Maroulis, David Sanborn, Bernie Williams, Richard Marx, Vanilla Fudge, Carl Palmer of ELP, Howard Jones, Nils Lofgren, Average White Band, Sonny Landreth, Aztec Two Step, Blackmore's Night, Big Bad Voodoo Daddy.


Here's where I need help. I would like to upgrade our lighting board - I am looking for ONE board to control all lights in the theater. Specifically, I would like something that is similar in familiarity to the ETC or something that I can learn to use and run in a matter of a few hours since we have shows frequently and I will not have weeks nor months to learn something new. I would love touch screen capability but most importantly, I am looking for something that will not be outdated in a week (discontinued), something that I can design offline and load and tweak prior to show time, something that has "quick looks" that can be saved to the board and pulled up for those days that a children's show is in the theater and the venue wants to bring up a simple wash on stage, something that visiting artists' lighting designers would want to use when they came to the venue and wanted to add their own LED lights or moving lights, etc.

I took over the lighting designer position after teaching myself how to operate the ETC and Electralite and the original guy getting ousted. I have no real formal training though I am very quick to learn. So I am not looking for anything that is extremely complex.

I was looking at the Leprecon LPC 96V, and the ETC Ion. Can anyone offer some advice? I was told to research and move quickly (by tomorrow- that's how quickly)

We were given a grant of 70K USD for upgrades of technical equipment - sound and lights. The budget I would have would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10K USD, but the less I spend, the more we can use for sound equipment.


Thanks!

 

[DuckJordan]

Honestly tours are going to want grandma or hog equip its the most common at least for tours that come through ours we have 2 expressions and two obsession 2s so I would vote the etc route since the on has been gone for a while and they still service ours.

Just my two cents

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

 

[topshelf1227]

Honestly tours are going to want grandma or hog equip its the most common at least for tours that come through ours we have 2 expressions and two obsession 2s so I would vote the etc route since the on has been gone for a while and they still service ours.

Just my two cents

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

So you would say the ETC Ion?

 

[soundlight]

None of those tours are going to be expecting top of the line lighting consoles. I would get an ETC ION with a 2x20 fader wing (mabe 2 fader wings for a live venue like yours) and 2x 19" ELO touchscreen monitors (there's a specific model that works with the ION). The ION however will not be exactly a rider friendly board. If the act is bringing in lights, in my experience, they tend to also bring in a console.

If you were going for rider-acceptable for a list of acts like that you'd be going with an Avo Pearl or a Hog. Neither of which I think would be good for the venue. I think though that if you're there so that you can program for any road LDs that you get you should be fine.

 

[texskittles]

Between those two, the Ion is going to be easier to learn coming from the Express, and the Moving Light capabilities are not too bad to learn (I did it in a day). I'd request a training session from ETC about operating your movers on the Ion and spend some good time with the manual. If you do that, you won't be disappointed.

 

[SteveB]

See about renting an Ion package for a weekend or 2. Find a shop that has touch screens and get 2, as well as at least a 40 fader wing.

Then get the system a few days early and spend time getting configured and finding your way around, then do a show or 2 on it.

I operate an Ion with 2 - 2x40 wings and dual touch screens and in the retrospective of 2 years of operations, I am very, very glad I purchased the 2 touch screens as they make life with ML's a ton easier. I've included a screen shot of my left screen that shows a Direct Select page on the left TS with, from bottom to top, the Group control for immediate access to the ML's, which up to this Monday are 6 High End Studio Spots CMY/Zooms, and after that add 6 Martin MAC700 Profiles. I then have a set of Focus Palettes, then above that a ton of pre-built gobo and image selections (you can expand that section for more options), then pre-built colors above that.

My right screen has the lower half configured with as many as 50 or more presets for instant "look" selection, with the presets a collection of the Fixtures, at selected colors, position and with/out beam attributes, all ready for one button selection. You can use the Sneak or Sneak, Time to fade in/out any preset. Everything gets labeled and positioned where you want it.

Or you can do similar things by building to subs, though I tend to use the subs for conventional looks and for inhibit subs for the ML intensities, as well as having as many as 6 or more effects ready to run (figure 8, ballyhoo, can-can, etc...). So I can do a Sneak, Time, 3, Preset (All to DC), then add an effect off a sub.

In short a poor man's Whole Hog, with the only shortcoming (IMO) being a clunky method to control effect rate that requires a couple of button pushes, but I get better at busking one-off's of acts I've never seen before, each time I use the desk.

Paid about $14,500 for the 1024 address desk, 3 wings, RRFU and dual touch screens ($650 ea. and worth every penny), or about $13,000 with just 2 wings, this was 2 years ago so prices will have gone up.

EDIT: Some add'l thoughts. The Ion does have an off-line editor, but it's not a visualizer, so you won't find it useful to pre-build any ML looks. The system uses a hard drive with USB for file transfer, so you can keep multiple kinds of shows ready to load, kids, meetings, R&R, whatever, thus you don't have to re-build every time.

The Ion may be the easiest to get simple stuff up and running, especially coming off an Express. It is very easy to add add'l gear, ML's or LED's, with ETC doing a good job of installing profiles as well as keeping them updated.

Other options are the Chamys Magic Q, which is well regarded. Also do a similar search on the LightNetwork.

 

[mstaylor]

Definitely the Ion, stay away from the Leprecon, the curve is steeper because it does things quite a bit different. If an act doesn't like your Ion, let them patch their board to the DMX and have at it. The Ion does have an offline editor so that is also helpful.

 

[shiben]

We were given a grant of 70K USD for upgrades of technical equipment - sound and lights. The budget I would have would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 10K USD, but the less I spend, the more we can use for sound equipment.


Thanks!

I would find an Ion, with or without touchscreens (either is doable, TS just makes it easier). Then Buy some more PARs as well. Do you really need lots of new sound gear? LX always seems to get screwed by the noise boys...

 

[meatpopsicle]

I would find an Ion, with or without touchscreens (either is doable, TS just makes it easier). Then Buy some more PARs as well. Do you really need lots of new sound gear? LX always seems to get screwed by the noise boys...

I go along with all the others. Get an Ion. I run mine with a single touchscreen on the right but I don't have any movers. With movers the 2nd Touch screen would be the way to go.

Additionally I would love to visit your venue. I live in the area. Feel free to contact me off site if I can be any assistance.

eiread at earthlink.net

 

[TimMiller]

Personally I'd go with a road hog. It will fit riders requesting the hog3 and will run anything you throw at it. It also has 2 built in touch screens. The learning curve between etc and hog is very easy. They program almost identically. I have never seen a rider requesting an etc console.

 

[mstaylor]

Personally I'd go with a road hog. It will fit riders requesting the hog3 and will run anything you throw at it. It also has 2 built in touch screens. The learning curve between etc and hog is very easy. They program almost identically. I have never seen a rider requesting an etc console.

I agree that the hog3 is better for filling riders but the Ion fills everything else they do and can do what they need for their concert stuff. If they have been pulling off shows with an Express then they will be in hog heaven with an Ion. Sorry for the pun.

 

[Footer]

I agree that the hog3 is better for filling riders but the Ion fills everything else they do and can do what they need for their concert stuff. If they have been pulling off shows with an Express then they will be in hog heaven with an Ion. Sorry for the pun.

We have most of the acts come through our smaller space that you listed. Most of those acts are house LD and look per song/sit on your hands. A Hog would be overkill... plus you would have to buy two to make sure you can do a show. Your not filling riders because none of those acts carry LDs... the the few that do will take whatever you can give them. So, get whatever you feel comfortable with is what you should go with. An Ion would do it.

 

[topshelf1227]

Let me clarify and ask some more Qs.

99% of the shows that we do the artist only requires that our LD run the show. only that 1% have actually come in to do it for themselves. In those 1% cases, 75% ask me to show them the board and design the show so they can be the Lightboard Op for the night. The other 25% of that 1% do bring their own stuff. I think in the 1.5 years I've been doing this job, only two artists brought their own board.

I am really self-trained so I have to make sure that I can figure it out on my own for the most part. I never went to school for LD, never received any formal training for LD etc. So the buzz words and fancy things I may not know how to do. I use the express to program "looks" into subs and use the subs to run the show live. I don't do cues unless it's for children's shows (which I do know how to do pretty well - I designed and ran a full production of Beauty and the Beast, Seussical Jr. and Godspell). I do use the cues on the intelligent light board. I design basic looks and color schemes and program them into the 24 cue buttons on the Electralite. I would like to learn more and make my job easier. I have run shows where I am using the intelligent light board, the ETC for stage lights and bumps, and the followspot! Talk about multitasking! I will say that I took the manual and the Express offline editor and taught myself the board overnight. Literally.

I also want to make sure that if my boss says the cost for my equipment would be too prohibitive, I have answers and a back up plan. She did say I should make a wish list and then a realistic list when I just told her that the price could be in the neighborhood of $14K. So if that will be the cost, I have to come up with solid reasons why we should spend that $ on what I am asking. (will not need to be upgraded at any time, can easily handle what the venue will use if for and it's not too much for what we run there, has ability to work in conjunction with other equipment if a band brings in LED's, for example).


The issue with the riders has not and will not ever be a problem. I run 99% of the shows now. But I do want the ease of use so that if need be, the venue has a way of bringing up simple looks in an "idiot proof way" that wouldn't require me to go there all the time. This is not my primary job, and there may be days where I will be unavailable. So can someone else step in and run this? Can I program from home and save it to flash drive and upload it at the venue so it can be run with minimal prep time at the venue?

Thanks to all for the feedback.

Here's some videos of my work and my venue in action: Some were when I first began. This will give you all a better idea what the venue looks and plays like.

THE CHURCH - Comedown - Boulton Center - Bay Shore - Long Island - 23 APR 2010 - YouTube

Carbon Leaf - The War Was in Color - YMCA Boulton Center - 1/14/11 - YouTube

Carbon Leaf - Live in Bay Shore NY - YouTube

Subdudes @ Boulton Center, Bayshore LI, "The Rain Song" 12/3/2009 - YouTube

Toad The Wet Sprocket New Song Friendly Fire At The Boulton Center April 4th, 2011 - YouTube

Another question...what can I assume to spend on the console and accessories? And where should I go for purchasing one?

Keep the ideas and suggestions and comments coming everyone! They really help me make an informed decision and help me approach my boss and eventually shop around for this.

 

[chausman]

Accessories are usually limited to some little liter, and a dust cover.

I would suggest an Ion, like everyone else, but I would go with two non-touch screens, and go with more fader wings. If you prefer to busk then record shows, you'll want more subs/channels that are easy to get to.

Or, get only one touchscreen for the movers, and a 2x20 and a 1x10 fader. 1x20 if you can.

A good reason to upgrade would be much better control over your movers (and a lot of expand ability for later). It is something that a lot of people can pick up fairly quickly, and get trained on without too much hassle. There is an offline editor you can use to program the entire show (if you feel so inclined to) and edit it later off site. Guests can use that to get things started, then you come in with the actual console to finish. And, saving involves a thumb drive instead of a floppy disk. And you can save multiple shows on the console itself.


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[Footer]

Let me clarify and ask some more Qs.

99% of the shows that we do the artist only requires that our LD run the show. only that 1% have actually come in to do it for themselves. In those 1% cases, 75% ask me to show them the board and design the show so they can be the Lightboard Op for the night. The other 25% of that 1% do bring their own stuff. I think in the 1.5 years I've been doing this job, only two artists brought their own board.

I am really self-trained so I have to make sure that I can figure it out on my own for the most part. I never went to school for LD, never received any formal training for LD etc. So the buzz words and fancy things I may not know how to do. I use the express to program "looks" into subs and use the subs to run the show live. I don't do cues unless it's for children's shows (which I do know how to do pretty well - I designed and ran a full production of Beauty and the Beast, Seussical Jr. and Godspell). I do use the cues on the intelligent light board. I design basic looks and color schemes and program them into the 24 cue buttons on the Electralite. I would like to learn more and make my job easier. I have run shows where I am using the intelligent light board, the ETC for stage lights and bumps, and the followspot! Talk about multitasking! I will say that I took the manual and the Express offline editor and taught myself the board overnight. Literally.

I also want to make sure that if my boss says the cost for my equipment would be too prohibitive, I have answers and a back up plan. She did say I should make a wish list and then a realistic list when I just told her that the price could be in the neighborhood of $14K. So if that will be the cost, I have to come up with solid reasons why we should spend that $ on what I am asking. (will not need to be upgraded at any time, can easily handle what the venue will use if for and it's not too much for what we run there, has ability to work in conjunction with other equipment if a band brings in LED's, for example).


The issue with the riders has not and will not ever be a problem. I run 99% of the shows now. But I do want the ease of use so that if need be, the venue has a way of bringing up simple looks in an "idiot proof way" that wouldn't require me to go there all the time. This is not my primary job, and there may be days where I will be unavailable. So can someone else step in and run this? Can I program from home and save it to flash drive and upload it at the venue so it can be run with minimal prep time at the venue?

Thanks to all for the feedback.

Here's some videos of my work and my venue in action: Some were when I first began. This will give you all a better idea what the venue looks and plays like.

THE CHURCH - Comedown - Boulton Center - Bay Shore - Long Island - 23 APR 2010 - YouTube

Carbon Leaf - The War Was in Color - YMCA Boulton Center - 1/14/11 - YouTube

Carbon Leaf - Live in Bay Shore NY - YouTube

Subdudes @ Boulton Center, Bayshore LI, "The Rain Song" 12/3/2009 - YouTube

Toad The Wet Sprocket New Song Friendly Fire At The Boulton Center April 4th, 2011 - YouTube

Another question...what can I assume to spend on the console and accessories? And where should I go for purchasing one?

Keep the ideas and suggestions and comments coming everyone! They really help me make an informed decision and help me approach my boss and eventually shop around for this.

Wow. We are getting exactly the same shows.

We have debated this one over and over around here. In our small space with have an Insight, in the larger room we have an express250. Just like you, if someone wants to run our console they rarely know anything beyond "fader goes up, lights come on". I think you could possibly be in Element territory if money becomes an issue. I would not go with anything programmer based such as Chamsys/GrandMA/Hog just for simplicity sake. As far as where to buy, there are plenty of dealers in the city. If you want to come up the creak a bit, BMI is just North of me along with Production Advantage just a bit north of that. I would not fret too much over extra fader wings or stuff like that... you don't need it for your program. Get a fader wing and the main wing. Touchscreens are nice but not necessary for what you are doing.

 

[meatpopsicle]

Accessories are usually limited to some little liter, and a dust cover.

I would suggest an Ion, like everyone else, but I would go with two non-touch screens, and go with more fader wings. If you prefer to busk then record shows, you'll want more subs/channels that are easy to get to.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I disagree. I believe that the setup that mentioned above had a 2x20 Wing. 40 handles, IMO, is plenty and the advantage of more than that doesn't outweigh the facility that 2 touchscreens will have with regard to movers.

The Ion is clunky without touchscreens.

 

[chausman]

The Ion is clunky without touchscreens.

I disagree with that. It's more complicated, but if you have enough palettes, it can be useful.

And, I did edit my post, after thinking about it a little more.


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[SteveB]

Accessories are usually limited to some little liter, and a dust cover.

I would suggest an Ion, like everyone else, but I would go with two non-touch screens, and go with more fader wings. If you prefer to busk then record shows, you'll want more subs/channels that are easy to get to.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm going to disagree with Chausman on this. After 2 years on an Ion busking R&R, as well as everything else from straight plays, to opera to kids shows, I'd trade back one of my 3 fader wings and keep the dual touch screens, which in retrospective, were the 2 items that paid off the most (except the console itself) in terms of functionality.

You can run a half dozen ML's as well as some LED's using 2 faders as inhibit subs for the non conventionals and still have 38 faders for statics. Yes, get another fader wing, maybe a 2x10 to help things along, but to run movers and the newer gear, the touch screens are really the way to go. Thing about the layout for a minute. You can put 40 playbacks for ML looks, actually less then that as you want a few for effects, so maybe 36 or so subs and use up an entire wing. Or you can put 50 playbacks on 50 Presets and use up a lot less hardware. With a tab open for a Direct Select of presets, it's a arrow up on screen for 51-100, arrow down for 101-150 and it changes nothing but the presets. That's ton's easier then paging subs, which pages conventionals as well as the effects at the same time. Using Recall from for an instant change, or Sneak and a preset press does a transition in time. This is (to me) the easiest way to get the most out of the desk.

FWIW, I believe an Ion is in the +7,000 range, with a 2x20 fader wing around $1900, a 2x10 at $900, with touch screens under $700 ea. Thus a basic Ion with 60 faders and screens would be $12,000 or so, maybe a bit more. Add a WiFi router and a iPod/Phone//Pad or Droid phone/Pad and the $50 ETC Apple or Android app and you have a wireless remote.

But to re-emphasize, you can't do pre-viz with the off-line editor, so the idea of building a show at home and e-mailing the show file probably won't happen unless you can get the OLE to connect to a stand-alone visualization program, which others have done. Perhaps researching that on the ETC Connect site would be a thought.

 

[soundlight]

Personally I'd go with a road hog. It will fit riders requesting the hog3 and will run anything you throw at it. It also has 2 built in touch screens. The learning curve between etc and hog is very easy. They program almost identically. I have never seen a rider requesting an etc console.

I've found that busking rigs made of mostly conventionals with the Road Hog to be a worse decision than using a Leprecon LPX. 10 faders just doesn't cut it. And the cost for just 10 more faders is rather high, IMO, and they take up a lot more space at FOH than an ION + Wing. Since the programming style is so similar, I don't see a problem with specifying an ION when most of the acts aren't going to have their own LDs.

 

[cfd701]

I use an ION with 1 touch screen, a 2X20 fader wing. I have about 35 movers, some LEDS and about 250 conventionals(give or take). I came from using an ETC Obsession and have not had any problem. We do music acts but I have time to write cues so I dont do a lot on the fly. One thing is that we purchased the wireless remote and I find the APP for my Iphone to work much better!!
Its a great board.