User Friendly Light board suggestions?

[Grog12]

I have an Express/Emphasis system, and while I think it's a great console(s), one thing it doesn't do very well is control Movers, even with Emphasis. IMO Expression is only a bit better then Express and I would not at this date recommend either if you want easy ML control - Sorry to Sarah and all the great folks at ETC, for that comment.
The bottom line as of today, is both Expression/Insight and Express consoles are dated controllers with ancient hardware (the single biggest issue with the consoles currently) and I suspect that once Ion gets really rolling and ETC comes out with a console between Ion and Eos, that ETC will discontinue first the Expression/Insight followed by the Express.
That said, the Smartfade and Smartfade ML are very good replacements in the lower end of the line, with Ion at the middle and both are the ETC controllers to consider, as both are reasonably good at ML - or so all the street buzz is telling us.
My $.02
Steve B.

I secnond everything Serra said in regards to this post and add my own two cents...

The Hog 2 is a "dated controller with ancient hardware" but its still being put to constant use. The 3 of them are good boards and you won't see the end of them for some time to come still...hell High end/flying pig couldn't get rid of the Hog 2 with the Hog 3

As for Ion/Eos....I tend to shy away from boards that seem like they have flashy graphics to have flashy graphics....why are we eating up proscessor power so my palletes can slide on to the screen?

 

[soundlight]

LSC Lighting Systems all the way.

They make VERY user-friendly boards, with a full on moving lights controller at a very competitive price.

I own their equipment and I couldn't be happier with it.

I've heard alot of good things about LSC. The maXim with PatPad seems like a really sweet deal, and I love the style of easy-to-use programming. After reading the manual, it all seemed so simple - I really want to use one of these.
Applied Electronics and Trussing is the main US distributor for the LSC maXim console (yeah, that sentence was just for hyperlinks).

 

[SteveB]

While the Express hardware might be old, it doesn't change the fact that it is tried and true. One of the best things to have in a console is the ability to know its bulletproof, and DOS based is just that, bulletproof."

DOS and the OS that Expression/Express operate in are not the problem. The issue is that the Express HARDWARE - I.E. the motherboard, chipsets etc... are 15 years old at this point, with Expression III at least that old. I recall hearing that certain parts for both consoles are either no longer available, or difficult and expensive to replace. One of the reasons ETC HAD to develop Emphasis is there was no way to get the hardware to to the things the software called for. Investing $5,000 - $6,000 in a console of that vintage is not cost effective. Nor would I recommend a Hog II for the same reasons.

"Windows consoles crash".

That's old thinking in my mind. Pretty much every thing out there is based on embedded XP Pro, including my Emphasis, which has been running for 14 mos. non-stop and has NEVER crashed. XP is here to say and to state that a user should stay away from Windows is ludicrous.

"Express OS is not the easiest for moving light control."

An understatement. The OP should do a site search, here and over on the LightNetwork. There's much said about the difficulties in controling ML's on an Express.

"He said it was for a theatre, "

Actually that was never stated. What the OP said was" "Any suggestions on light boards that are user friendly and are capable of using a few moving lights"

His/Her (original post by a Kari - might be female - I'll assume male) follow up post did indicate a preference for Express, but does he have any experience using the trackpad and fixture window on an Express with a ML ?, apparently not (It sucks). Ditto the issue of no Move Before Bright, or mark cue capability on Express.

Yes, Express still does a lot of thing very well, including the fact that with 10,000 consoles in use worldwide, there's a lot of compatibility. Still, unless the theaters a road house (like mine) how many times will a disk from any of the Express/Ion/Insights be useful ?. I happen to use this compatibility all the time, but am planning on sticking with the Ion/Eos line of consoles because they offer import from Express/Ion III.

"I would love to recommend the Ion, but if the Expression is out his range price range, the Ion most certainly is."

So maybe Smartfade ML. Gains you the famous ETC tech support.

"I have no doubt that one day, the Express line will be replaced, or maybe ETC will refresh them."

ETC will not be "refreshing" the hardware, which implies new software. They are no longer fixing bugs in Emphasis either. Once Ion is squared away, Express and Expression will be discontinued.

"A Hog 500/1000 are also old, doesn't change the fact that people still love, use, and buy them everyday."
All true. There are dial up phones and black and white tv's still in use as well. Doesn't mean we recommend them as NEW to anybody.

SB

 

[Grog12]

Any suggestions on light boards that are user friendly and are capable of using a few moving lights with? (for people who have no experience with ML's or anything more than a simple two scene preset board)...
And of course, they would be on a budget...
Thanks!

change the fact that people still love, use, and buy them everyday."
All true. There are dial up phones and black and white tv's still in use as well. Doesn't mean we recommend them as NEW to anybody.
SB

He never said it had to be new. In fact based on the criteria seems an Express/pression would be up his/her ally. I tend not to recommend anything out of the SmartFade line personally.

 

[SerraAva]

Alright SteveB, go back, reread post nine. Kari stated that an Express would work, has used it before, and had no problems with it. Kari's sig also states House Electrian, Stage Manger, LD. Kari also stated going from a two scene preset to a moving light console for someone who has no experience. What road house has a two scene preset? I can name a few roadhouses in South Jersey that use Express/Expression/Insight. Heck, one still has an Insight 2, and it still works. With all of that, I am lead to believe that this is for a theatre. Also, why do Hog 2s go for about the same price as used Hog IPCs if they are so vintage?

They updated the hardware before, there is a reason why its called Expression 3 and Insight 3. The Vista runs off of a P4 which aren't made anymore, and its the latest and greatest thing. The Hog 3 is fan less. The last time I check, the last processors to be fan less were P3s and K6s, 2 generations of CPUs behind. It is old hardware, doesn't mean it doesn't work. They also update the software as well. The fact that they could even do something like Emphasis, and add it on to a 15 year old console I think is a blessing for those who bought them 15 years or even 5 years ago. I believe that is called a good investment.

The track pad, I don't use it. I record all my colors and gobos as groups, use faders for movement. It works quite well. I have ran dance concerts, talent shows, and bands on the fly with movers, as many as 12, and not had a problem. Like was said to me in another thread, don't let the hardware limit you. Also, see what Kari said about it in post 9.

Everything is not based on Windows, Ma's aren't for example. Ma's also don't crash as much. Have you worked on a Vista yet? When I take it out, I take two of them, because one will crash without fail, if not both. Hog 3's crash, and when they first came out, they crashed a lot. Hog PC's as I stated in another thread crash a lot as well.

I also never stated stay away from XP. If Kari had the money, I would say get the Eos, but common sense tells me you don't go from a two-scene preset to an Eos. I said Windows crashes, still doesn't stop most of the world from running on it. All my computers use it. You said Ion, I said bad. I don't want to be the beta tester for a new console when I can get one that I know will work. The only reason why I use the Vista is because its what a company I work for owns.

I would personally take an Express over a Smart Fade ML if I had the space and money, and it falls in between an Expression 3 and Smart Fade ML in price too. Kari asked for options, we gave options.
Kari said, "For this particular application, I think the ETC Express is nearly perfect, but I wanted some outside opinions. They bought a Leprecon board, and as was suggested on here, it's pretty much a pain. They have now asked me what kind of light board I suggest.... I didn't want to say the Express right off the bat, but in my opinion, it is plenty capable to handle the movers they have. I just finished a show in that theatre using the Express (instead of the LP) and I had no trouble whatsoever. But before giving a suggestion, I just wanted to do a little research on the other consoles out there."
So I responded by saying an Expression 3 would be easier if you had the money, easier still an Insight 3 but its more money. I also didn't recommend a black and white TV to anyone. I would however recommend a Hog 500/1000.

 

[SerraAva]

Thanks Grog.

 

[SteveB]

Serra,

In re-reading my post I realize it can easily be read as a personal attack as to your recommendation to Kari, so an apology is in order as it's a passionate subject to me and I should have been more dispassionate.

Rather then you and I - and others, going round and round about Express, Kari should do some additional thinking about their needs for the future. Some info. to us as to budget would be helpful as well as additional research on this site about Express and Moving Light Control, as well as doing similar research on the LightNetwork and BlueRoom site - the UK based group.

One over-riding thought is that whatever theater Kari works should call their local ETC dealer and inquire as to a new Express. It would not surprise me if the dealer would steer them away from this console and towards something different. I would be surprised if ETC was not simply filling legacy orders at this point (theaters/facilities under construction) for Express and would be very surprised if they get any new orders for either Express or Expression/Insight. I cannot imagine a reputable dealer suggesting either Express or Expression/Insight due to the age of both consoles and the ability of the new Ion and/or Smartfade to do the same things only better.

That's not to say I don't love Express. I have 3, with my primary console being a 48x2 scene with Emphasis in a road house. It works great and the need for 120 or so fader handles in a particular footprint is what is making me start considering Ion. (Eos is too big with the requisite faders). When I say it works great, the caveat is it doesn't do moving lights particularly well and my experience is shared and well documented on both this site and on both LightNetwork and Blue Room, which Kari should research as well.

There are also other consoles that might be less costly then Ion and while I have no experience with Smartfade ML, it has one thing going for it, which is it's an ETC console. I am of the firm believe that both Eos and Ion are going to be seemingly very good consoles (Eos seemingly is selling very well), though it's going to be hard to match the 10,000 Express's sold.

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College

 

[KaR356i]

Thanks so much for all the input! To clear a few things up:

This is for a tiny theatre at a small community college that mainly does speaker events. They bought some low end ML's and then invested in a couple of Martin color washes. They do not have a theatre department but put on about one show a year through the drama club, from what I understand. They originally had a two scene preset, and they just bought an LPX 48 I believe. Anyone who would run the light board there would most likely have little to no experience with ML's or computerized light boards in general. They do a few events every few years where they want a bit more help from a professional standpoint, and they have in the past called me in for those. I used the LPX and I think it's horrid, and not a likely board for the people with zero experience to pick up quickly. There is a small theatre company that rents out that auditorium a few times a year to put on productions: they bring in their own sound and light board, and I set things up for them. They have an Express 24/48 and I just finished a show using all the new ML's on that board instead of the LPX. I've had plenty of experience on the Express and most of the related ETC consoles. For this application, I think the Express is more than adequate. The question may have arisen for the college to buy the Express board from that theatre company in place of the Leprecon they bought. In my opinion, the express is going to be a lot more user friendly, even with ML's, than the LPX. I believe it will be more useful in their now-and-then speaker events, and is completely capable of handling any of the productions that are put on in that space.

I posted the question on here rather vaguely because I wanted to find out if anyone would even begin to suggest a Leprecon for that sort of application. No one did, which is quite interesting. Also, I have a preference for ETC boards in this kind of application, and I didn't want my bias towards them to effect any suggestion I would give them on this. Trying to stay objective!!

Thanks for all the input! it has been incredibly useful!!!

 

[SerraAva]

No problem Kari. Glad to help. Also Steve, I feel its better to be overly passionate then not passionate at all. With heated passions, more and more facts come out and it hopefully gives the OP more and more information. I admit I like stirring things up a bit just for this reason, so I myself can learn more. Just as long as it doesn't get away from the OP topic will I continue to debate. No hard feelings at all.

 

[STEVETERRY]

Since finding an Express may prove difficult since they are no longer made, you might think about looking into the Expression (used as well). They are much more ML friendly than the Express, but they program exactly the same. while you are doing that, you might also want to look into a used Strand 300, the strand OS has a much better ML package than the Express/ion line.

Err...we still make Express--it's a current product.

ST

 

[gafftaper]

It sounds to me like the Smartfade ML is a much better solution than the Express. The Smartfade is extremely simple like their current board to figure out while also being extremely powerful... unlike the current board. If you get them an Express they will just use it as a 2 scene preset and never figure out any of the advanced functions. Then you have to suffer through the experience of using the Express for movers which isn't fun. Plus budget wise the Smartfade ML makes more sense. If you were asking for a great console that you weren't going to use in a completely conventional inventory then yes the Express is a great choice. But it has one weakness... movers... and you are talking about spending money on a console to specifically control movers. It makes no sense to get an Express.

Also noticed no one mentioned Strand. The new Strand Palletes are what 10 years newer in technology than the Express. They come in a variety of console configurations with the same software. A two scene preset version will cost about the same as an Express but you have the new Horizon software which is very user friendly for a typical windows user. Being from the newest generation of control consoles it'll kick and Express' butt in ML control. Don't get me wrong I love the Express and ETC products in general. But I hate doing anything more complicated than an I-cue on an Express. Also how many dimmers do you have to spare to control these movers? That's a huge problem the Express has that the latest generation consoles don't (I'm not sure if that includes SmartfadeML or not).

I say get a SmartfadeML, A Strand Palette of the style you prefer, Congo Jr., or Ion. An Express doesn't belong on that list because you are looking for a console to control moving lights and it does that VERY poorly.

 

[SerraAva]

There are a few problems with that Gaff. Like I stated before, I wouldn't want to be the one to jump head first into the Ion. The Congo Jr costs 10 grand, and is a small little thing that doesn't have much in the way of hands on control, meaning faders. Its more of a ML console. I find it very easy to do MLs on an Express, easier and faster then a Smartfade ML. Others might find it hard, others might find it easy like me. I also personally don't like Horizon. I thought about getting a Light Palette Classic, but when I downloaded Horizon to try it, I hated it.

If people are comfortable using an Express, why recommend something different? Also, Expresses will be around for a while, with computer controls costing at least 4 grand new, which many small venues can't or can barely afford. 4 grand is 13 new Source Four lekos, or 26 new Source Four Pars. Its also a 6 rack of Sensors. You can get roughly four 6 channel 2.4k Smart packs or three 12 channel 1.2k packs. If ETC's lowest cost mid range console suddenly becomes 10 grand, they will lose a large following.

Like Grog has said, why do things need to be flashy just to be flashy? The flashy is what makes things more complicated, need more processing power, and more likely to crash. Its the reason why each new OS needs more processing power, RAM, and hard drive space then the OS before it.

 

[PadawanGeek]

Here is the thing, there is an inverse correlation between price and ease of use. Meaning, the least expensive boards can be awkward, and to some extent, when you put out more money they get easier. There is a point where this abruptly reverses itself, and you end up with a board that requires training before use. Most likely, each person that responds to this thread will have their favorite. An inexpensive choice would be the Elation DMX Operator Pro (~ $325) It can run eight fixture groups (up to 16ch each) with 96 scenes. It also has eight stage dimmer channels for straight dimmers, so it gives you a little of everything at an entry level price.

I think if you search this forum, you will find a lot of threads that already cover this subject in one form or another.

We have a DMX Operator Pro at the youth ministry and it's easy to use yet powerful. I have even trained 6th graders on it.

 

[icewolf08]

I think it is interesting that some people feel that the new and improved features on the EOS and ION are flashy, and that things on those consoles are flashy for the sake of being flashy. I just don't find that to be true. With a tactile interface you need to be able to see what you are doing, and if each section on the screen has a different look to it, it will make your life easier. If everything looks the same then you have to hunt for what you want. The fact that you can arrange the channel display to look like your magic sheet may be one of the most useful tools for designers. There really isn't anything on the consoles that flashy, it is designed to be utilitarian. When we demoed the EOS, we were told, that at the most basic level, if you knew how to program an Obsession II it would be very easy to sit down at EOS and program a show. That is really true. The keyboard is laid out almost exactly the same, ML control is very similar, it just has more features to help you out.

While DOS has proved to be a stable platform for lighting control, we are one of the few industries still using it. It just isnt robust enough to handle the newer, more complex tasks we throw at it. Gaff is right, in the Expression price range, it is worth looking into the Strand Palette Series. Why, for exactly the reasons he said, the hardware is new, the software is new, and it is going to handle everything you throw at it much better, and it is in that price range. What happens when the small venue gets handed a bunch of money and they decide to buy a host of new intelligent gear. Hands down it will be easier to deal with on a newer console. If you wouldn't go out and buy a 10-15 year old computer (that was NIB) why would you buy a 10-15 year old light board that is in the same price range as newer equipment.

So, it's theatre, our motto id often: Make do with what you have. If you know Expression and you are happy with it, get one, and you will make do. If you aren't particular, look into some of the newer consoles. Also, call your local dealers and arrange demos. Sit down in front of all of the consoles mentioned and decide what you like and don't like about them all. Then it will be a lot easier to pick.

 

[Grog12]

Has nothing to do with the fact that its tactile ice...has everything to do with menus that slide on and off the screen.

I think it is interesting that some people feel that the new and improved features on the EOS and ION are flashy, and that things on those consoles are flashy for the sake of being flashy. I just don't find that to be true. With a tactile interface you need to be able to see what you are doing, and if each section on the screen has a different look to it, it will make your life easier. If everything looks the same then you have to hunt for what you want. The fact that you can arrange the channel display to look like your magic sheet may be one of the most useful tools for designers. There really isn't anything on the consoles that flashy, it is designed to be utilitarian. When we demoed the EOS, we were told, that at the most basic level, if you knew how to program an Obsession II it would be very easy to sit down at EOS and program a show. That is really true. The keyboard is laid out almost exactly the same, ML control is very similar, it just has more features to help you out.
While DOS has proved to be a stable platform for lighting control, we are one of the few industries still using it. It just isnt robust enough to handle the newer, more complex tasks we throw at it. Gaff is right, in the Expression price range, it is worth looking into the Strand Palette Series. Why, for exactly the reasons he said, the hardware is new, the software is new, and it is going to handle everything you throw at it much better, and it is in that price range. What happens when the small venue gets handed a bunch of money and they decide to buy a host of new intelligent gear. Hands down it will be easier to deal with on a newer console. If you wouldn't go out and buy a 10-15 year old computer (that was NIB) why would you buy a 10-15 year old light board that is in the same price range as newer equipment.
So, it's theatre, our motto id often: Make do with what you have. If you know Expression and you are happy with it, get one, and you will make do. If you aren't particular, look into some of the newer consoles. Also, call your local dealers and arrange demos. Sit down in front of all of the consoles mentioned and decide what you like and don't like about them all. Then it will be a lot easier to pick.

 

[derekleffew]

Any suggestions on light boards that are user friendly and are capable of using a few moving lights with? (for people who have no experience with ML's or anything more than a simple two scene preset board)...

And of course, they would be on a budget...

Thanks!

Let's focus on the OP's original question. The ETC Express seems to fit his criteria better than any console I can think of. He said "capable" of using a few moving lights. Hog3, Maxxyz, Vista, and grandMA are better at moving light control, but with a significant learning curve, and a $30-50K price tag. Using moving lights on an Expression3 made me a better Hog/MA programmer. It can be done, just not quickly. The new Strand consoles and Eos/Ion are most likely out of his price range. ETC will support the Express as long as those consoles live, their support is inarguable. I have no experience with SmartFade or Strand300, so cannot speak to those. There will always be something newer/better/faster around the corner, but KaR356i, if you need a new console now, I feel an Express, new or used, would be the way to go.

 

[jmabray]

Eos is on par, pricing wise, with the obsession 2.

Ion, on the other hand, depending on the options (i.e. fader wings) bought ranges in price from just above the larger express boards to the expression 3 price range.

Just fyi.....

As for the menu's sliding on and off the screen...

I have a rant for that along the same lines as Alex above - but it's probably not a road I should go down.....

 

[SteveB]

Unfortunately, while Steve Terry has chimed in to state that ETC still makes the Express (he didn't say anything about the Expression or Insight - but lets assume they still make those as well), you have to wonder for how much longer. Note also that I would not expect Steve or Sarah to comment as this is really a proprietary marketing issue.

They are going to pull the plug. They have to, probably sooner rather then later. They cannot and will not continue to pay salaries in tech. support for legacy gear whose hardware they will increasingly have difficulty finding much less replacing, especially with all the new Ion/Eos/Congo/Jr and Smartfade gear they need to support as well. Yes, there will always be a data base as well as some folks for the older stuff, just as you can call for Microvision support, but at some point old is old, and Express is old.

Serra, in all due respect, you are about the only person I've ever read that finds it "easy" to run ML's on an Express. I understand your dedication to the console, I too share that respect and dedication, but easy to run ML's is not one of the Express's strong points, in comparison to a lot of recent designs.

I too "almost" started to recommend an Express, which more then anything maybe shows a hole in the current ETC product line, with a lot of folks not really liking the Smartfade ML (I cannot say I'm overly impressed from reading the lierature), but thinking the ION is too expensive (has anyone seen any real prices ?), especially when you factor in a couple of fader wings to equal a 48 channel 2 scene with 24 subs.

Still, If I were a dealer I would not be recommending a 15 year old console that sucks at moving lights.

My final $.01

SB

 

[SerraAva]

Guess I am the only SteveB, maybe I should give classes. Anyway, as stated before, I have not heard anything about a new console in the low to mid range price segment to replace the Express/Expression/Insight yet. No new console in this range means lose of market share which I am sure ETC doesn't want to do. If someone has, care to share? I am sure the Ion won't undercut the Congo Jr in price either since the Congo Jr is relatively new and they have closely matching OS limits.

Also, as I said before, the P3s in the Maxxyz were discontinued by Intel in Q1 of 2002, almost 6 years ago at this point. It still sells for about 50 grand new. The Hog 3 is fanless, which the last processor to be fanless from Intel was also the P3 in that time period, for 25 grand. The Jands Vista is runs off of a P4 515 Prescott at youngest, discontinued in 2006. At the oldest, a P4 "B" Northwood discontinued in late 2004 to early 2005. Can't find any info on what's in the Eos, Ion, Congo, and Congo Jr. All lighting boards besides PC software based ones run off of old, discontinued hardware. So don't make it seem like new lighting consoles are super computers I guess is my point, because we are over paying based on hardware specs only. Also, why did lighting jump over about 17 versions of Windows before it stopped using DOS? Windows XP also stops selling in January or February of '08, forget which, so what happens then to everything with XP embedded?

 

[gafftaper]

I had an ETC Rep tell me about 3 years ago that they were beginning the slow process of completely replacing the product line. They began at the low end with the SmartFades and at the High End with Congo/Jr/EOS/ION. All that's left is the middle. If you look at the product lines it was the most logical piece to leave for last. The Expresses target audience is very happy with what they already have and Emphasis provided a band aid for those trying to run movers. Yes they are great consoles and they'll be supported a long time. But they are vastly out of date compared to the consoles around them. It's only a short mater of time until they are discontinued. I have to also say this is the first time I've ever heard anyone say it's easy to program a mover on an Express. And I repeat the question How many spare dimmers do you have for those moving lights to eat up in order for the Express to be able to control them?