Using an auto voltage sensing device with 208V without a neutral

Hi everyone. I have an electricity question. We recently purchased an LED wall. According to the specs, it's able to be run 100V-250V 50/60Hz. It shipped with 3-wire leads. When we use it with 120V, the wires are of course, Hot, Neutral, Ground. We have a moving light distro that outputs 208V over 3 wires (Hot-Hot-Ground). If we were to power the LED wall with this, would its auto sensing power supply be able to adjust to 208V without the neutral wire? Or would this only work in Europe where there is still a neutral wire, but the voltage between hot and ground is 240V?
Thanks.
 
The marking '100-250V' means the product operates continuously throughout the range, with no switches or wiring changes needed. Further, 208V isn't an unusual voltage, since it's within tolerance for European power systems.
 
You'll be fine. While I understand the source of your question, and also feel like electricity exists to make my head hurt at times, the power supply cares about the potential between the wires, and not that one is "hot" and one is "neutral".
 
Out of curiousity--and because I didn't want to state this authoritivly--In a theoretical system where Line->earth measured 60 volts, could you run standard incandescent fixture off of two legs of said system? I think the answer is yes, but i certainly don't have enough theory to explain why.
 
Out of curiousity--and because I didn't want to state this authoritivly--In a theoretical system where Line->earth measured 60 volts, could you run standard incandescent fixture off of two legs of said system? I think the answer is yes, but i certainly don't have enough theory to explain why.

There needs to be more information...
Line to Earth might be 60V, but what's the second connection of the lamp? Is it Earth or is it something else?
 
Thank you. It is not the voltage itself that concerns me, but the relationship between the two wires and how the power supply would react. But if each Hot acts to complete the circuit for the other (in the same way a MAC700 does) it will be ok, yes?
 
So the question is whether the wall will be happy not having one of the conductors at "0" volts as a neutral?
 
Not quite. The Wall is happy running in 120V with 0V on the neutral (in relation to ground) but to save on current draw, we'd like to run it in 208V. So the question is if the wall would be happy with 2 hots, each at 120V to ground and no neutral wire. The 3-wire connection coming from our 208V distros is Hot-Hot-Ground.
 
Yes, you will be fine.

The PSU in the wall cares about the difference between the two sources, not where they come from. Giving it Hot-Hot-Ground will be fine.
 
The unit itself has no idea what we are calling the wires, and there is no reference to ground allowed in the fixture/system. It only cares about what the potential is between the two wires, whether they are black/white or blue/brown. The green/green-yellow only connects to the case to provide a safe path to earth should something go wrong.
In the US, we have Edison plugs with two different prong widths. The wider prong is neutral. The primary purpose of this is to try and make such legacy items as an Edison lamp socket a bit more safe by insuring the larger part you could touch is less likely to be live. Functionally, the neutral should be just as isolated from ground as the hot.
 
Functionally, the neutral should be just as isolated from ground as the hot.

Hmmm, please explain. In North America, neutral is bonded to ground at the service entrance or secondary of feed transformer. Are you talking about the feed or the video wall electronics?

Either way, I agree that the OP is fine with putting the wall on 208V.

David
 
Addressing several items:

Modern devices separate the two-wire power circuit from user-accessible parts of the device either with a third wire - the ground, or by being double-insulated with rubber or plastic, etc. Prior to this, a variety of schemes were used - from devices where the chassis was directly bonded to the neutral wire, capacitively bonded to both the hot and neutral wires, or in a few cases, had large internal parts directly bonded to the hot wire. In the olden days, absolute polarity made a big difference, as plugging in the device backwards (or to a mis-wired receptacle where hot and neutral were reversed) could present full line voltage to the large metal exterior of the device. This hazard still continues tody with the use of vintage guitar amps, but for the most part, polarity doesn't matter.

In a simple two-wire circuit, a balanced system such as the two hot legs of a residential North American 240/120 service and a European 240v system with 240v on one hot and the other wire at ground potential are totally indistinguishable at the device level. If you put an (isolated) oscilloscope across these power conductors, you would see exactly the same waveform. Similarly, two legs of a 208v 3-phase system are indistinguishable from two legs of either a North American or a European 240v system, other than the voltage difference.

The difference between a center-tapped 240v system like we use in NA and the European 240v system does start to matter when you consider fault potential. In the North American system, the voltage potential between a hot leg and ground is 120v, so unless you have managed to be extra unlucky by touching two phases at the same time, you're only going to be shocked to 120v, which in most situations is survivable. In the European system, every shock between line and ground is a 240v shock, which is significantly more dangerous. In cases where cord damage is likely such as power tools on construction sites, code mandates that a step-down transformer is used so that the power tools are run from 120v, reducing the shock potential.

Someone asked if it is possible to have power with 60v between each hot leg and ground, and 120v between two hot legs. Yes, this exists and is sometimes used in technical power applications and fancy recording studios. It is even safer than the regular North American power system as a shock now is only 60v, and regular 120v devices can run on this power without issue as the device only cares about the voltage difference between it's line wires, which is 120v.
 
Hmmm, please explain. In North America, neutral is bonded to ground at the service entrance or secondary of feed transformer. Are you talking about the feed or the video wall electronics?

Either way, I agree that the OP is fine with putting the wall on 208V.

David
This would be a reference to the appliance itself, whether it is a lighting fixture, video wall, or a simple electric drill.
In the US, such devices must have both conductors isolated from the frame. They should be totally interchangeable. This is not always the case, and the legacy list is very long, including the example of the modern table lamp in my last post. In such cases where finger can easily meet electricity, the "more likely" area, such as the shell of the light socket, needs to be connected to the larger blade of the receptacle, which should be the neutral. Of course, you could always stick your finger right down the center and touch the center tab and still get shocked.
The most dangerous example is the classic old guitar amp with the "polarity switch." This switch was usually connected to a capacitor that fed the frame. Depending on the position of the switch, the other end of the capacitor was connected to one of the two leads of the power cord. Plenty of musicians have found out the drawback to this design when their lips touches a known ground point such as a microphone! Of course I am getting off the prior subject so let me loop back: When a third ground conductor is available to connect the frame to the ground conductor of the receptacle, both of the remaining conductors should be equally isolated from ground. UL required a Hi-Pot (High Potential) test in which a substantially higher than expected voltage is inserted via both conductors and leakage to ground is measured. I do not have the threshold number handy, but it is darn close to 0.
 
This would be a reference to the appliance itself, whether it is a lighting fixture, video wall, or a simple electric drill.
In the US, such devices must have both conductors isolated from the frame. They should be totally interchangeable.
UL required a Hi-Pot (High Potential) test in which a substantially higher than expected voltage is inserted via both conductors and leakage to ground is measured. I do not have the threshold number handy, but it is darn close to 0.

Makes sense, thanks. Just wanted to make sure we weren't talking about feeds.

So yes, Hi-Pot tests are still performed and they are slightly different depending on what operating voltage the product is designed for. Typically, we test at 1800 VDC attached to hot and neutral referenced to ground. There is also a short ramp on application and removal, and then a whole lot of safety gear around the test so that no one comes in contact with said voltage. A lot of our Hi-Pot test units even have built in GFCIs. So folks know, this testing is in place to find shorts between hot and/or neutral to ground so that people do not accidentally get shocked in use. So yes, hot and neutral on products are interchangeable.

David
 

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