Venue sound level restrictions in contract

tschnuckel

Member
My venue’s board wants to put language into all contracts. What are some opinions on this or suggestions? Here is what they sent to me as a proposal.

I’m a system designer by training and understand how subjective SPL can become because of all the variables. It really isn’t just a number, but location, time, weight, program material, etc. and then you go from there once “0” is defined. I’ve already built in some heavy compression in the DSP and we don’t really have a problem with it, but for some reason they now think we need to spell it out in contracts.

I’m not seeking legal advice, just others experience with this concept and enforcement

here’s what they want....

Sound Levels: Federal and Local standard for maximum continuous sound level is 85 decibels. Purchaser will allow an average “A-weighted” sound level of 90 decibels with no peaks above 100 decibels. These measurements will be taken at various locations in the theater during sound check. The Purchaser retains the right to determine appropriate sound levels for all performances and to take corrective action should it deem sound levels inappropriate or harmful.
 
The 85dB reference is superfluous and factually misrepresents the standards. 85dBA is where NIOSH wants you to limit exposure to 8 hrs daily and is an occupational noise exposure limit for employees -- not a maximum continuous limit for the general public during a recreational event. If 85 isn't the limit you're enforcing, don't include it because it will only confuse people. They may think you are referring to ordinances, which would in most cases would actually be much lower than 85 and refer to what is going on at the property line.

I would make all limits exactly how they would read on a sound meter to avoid any confusion. It sounds like what that language is asking for is:
90 LAeq (this would have a time average applied it, for example 5 or 15 minutes)
100 LApk

As to the overall levels, 90 LAeq is generally low. Most symphonies will violate that if you're seated near the front of the room, and a percussion section will blow past the 100 LApk because of the impulsive nature of the source. How high you go is up to you and is largely dependent on the patrons you serve and types of events you book. I don't know what kind of events you book so it's hard to gauge what's actually appropriate for your venue, but my gut is that if you go 90, anyone who actually knows what that means will probably argue with you or take their business elsewhere.

If you are more of a community venue than a professional roadhouse -- I would be inclined to leave the language vague and say that the "House retains all rights to limit noise levels for the comfort and safety of patrons." The reality is that a show that is mixed well through a high caliber sound system can be 100dB and still comfortable to listen to, and a mix that's very bad through any type of PA can be painful even at 70dB. When I supervised a community roadhouse, we kept the language vague specifically for those instances. We were also not equipped or staffed to constantly measure sound levels for events, nor were our clients measuring their own levels. Chances are if push came to shove and an issue came up, it would ultimately end up in someone whipping out their phone and trying to take an uncalibrated measurement that would be off by 10 or 20 dB, or would be weighted wrong. It wouldn't have been productive. If you choose to include hard limits AND retain the right to limit all noise levels, be prepared to argue with someone who is within the limit but the House deems "too loud" when they really mean "it's a bad mix" or "we don't like the style".

I don't understand the use of the word "Purchaser" in your proposed language. In my mind, the purchaser is the one paying to rent the venue but the proposed language leaves all of the rights to the Purchaser to determine appropriate sound levels...the language is not clear on its face. Also, the way it is written, it sounds like the venue will be responsible for taking measurements during sound check to determine compliance. Measurements for enforcement should be taken live during the event, and for simplicity I would always reference them from FOH. It will always be a little louder in the front, typically by 3-5 dB for sound reinforcement, and could be more for an orchestra -- buying a ticket up front is a patron's choice and most people know it it will be louder if they're buying a ticket for a live music event.

If in doubt, take noise readings over the next 2 months of events from FOH and see where your current shows are falling. What's average? Were any of those shows unreasonably loud? It's not uncommon to get noise complaints but did any shows get more complaints than normal?
 
Here's the cruel truth about live music and SPL expectations (on both sides):

An artist's management or booking agent will sign any contract with any language in it. Whatever the agent or manager says the act will agree to, will *never* get relayed to the act's production manager or stage manager or mixerperson; been there, done that, there is no tshirt. This makes for a ugly surprise for some acts, while others will not have a significant, if any, problem.

Terms in the *artists* riders frequently require no hidden compression and full access to all system processing, so if it comes down to a pissing contest, who might you think loses? The act will expect box office settlement before they perform, play the show at whatever level they customarily play, sell their merch and leave. What will the venue do, stop the performance, kill the stage power, have police arrest the mixerperson? Create an ocean of ill will with ticket buyers and promoter (if the venue is not the promoter)?

The venue has patrons, sponsors or donors that don't like it "loud". Keeping your local money happy is important - they make it possible to be open to start with and some believe their contributions give them editorial or artistic control. And "if you don't like the song/band/genre, it's always too loud." That said, you need a executive director that can massage egos and prevent BoD micromanagement. It's a fine line to walk and not many people can do it.

My questions: is there a genuine, "ticket buyers complaining" issue with SPL; is this driven mostly by a couple of board members; is this preemptive in anticipation of a problem? Only certain genres? Is the venue exclusive promoter? Does the venue want to limit SPL when an outside promoter rents exclusive use of the theater? What about dance/cheerleading competitions?

My observation: the proposed SPL limit is unenforceable for a number of technical reasons, and frankly for any modern (amplified) performance, 90 dB will be unattainable as the stage SPL will be higher. 95, A Slow *might* be a better compromise and remember, the OSHA regulations on noise exposure is for an 8 hour work day. Your audience will have around 3 hours, so averaged across the 8 hours... See @MNicolai excellent post above. I suggest researching LEQ logging...

I've worked in a couple of historic venues that had very specific SPL limits in certain pass bands to prevent damage to the unrestored (historic) plaster work, and under the circumstances reasonable compromises were agreed to between artist's on-site representative and the venue and me (as system engineer). Not fun but everyone was equally unhappy so it must have been okay. ;)
 
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Thank you both. I agree with keeping the language vague since most shows we supply the mix anyway. They’ve only had problems when the mix/sound was from the artist.

There are lots of good points and this is why I like this forum. It’s good to have a place to provide perspective and experience. It’s easy to get lost in the weeds on some of this, but not be able explain your way out.

We are a community venue attached to a school. There is a community organization that bring shows like tribute artists or bands, magicians, comedians, etc. Patrons are retired or older.

Admittedly I’m new to organization this year and they have had poor tech leadership for the past 9 years. That’s how I got brought in. I don’t work for the school only the organization.
 
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I have seen this from many sides. Hard limits have to be realistic and reasonable and 100dB certainly does not meet that criteria.

For one I am TD of a folk festival that has multiple stages running at the same time. a FOLK festival (outdoors with tents in places), and we are always having various "too loud" or "sound bleed" complaints. I don't really have the time right now to go into detail, however we usually try to keep levels under (generally) 95db (A weight, slow) at FOH. But often enough the sound on the stage far exceeds this quickly.

For instance Samba Squad when they play is easily 110db with NO PA.
Delhi to Dublin famously was so loud one year that with the FOH PA off they were over 100 dB at FOH.
 
So ... 2 things. As mentioned above, taking measurements during sound check is just silly. Fill the house with people and everything changes - more absorption, more background crowd noise, possibly more HVAC activity now that all those bodies are warming the place up.

2nd - one excellent way to manage excess house level is to steer artists toward in ear monitoring. That's tough in a road house, i know ... but perhaps a carrot and stick approach could work. When you eliminate all that stage bleed from wedge monitors, guitar cabinets, etc. many things get better, including a cleaner and more balanced mix to the house, without the need to over-compensate for things like bass guitar amp bleed.
 
OK kids... A-weighting in modern measurement situations is just not adequate.

Why, oh why, would you take your LF measurements and toss them?

Are you mixing for radio broadcast?

Your venue doesn't have any subwoofers??? Doubtful.

Please, please, please start using C-weighting at least. your measurements will be more accurate and your volumes will be more considerate.

I have to carry plugs with me at all modern events that I go to. Small, large, it doesn't matter.

102dB C-weighted peaks and cruising at 90-96dB C-weighted averages (fast vs. slow) at the center of the event seems to be what satisfies most. The people next to the array will go deaf and the people at the back can still hear the hi-hat.

It is still too loud to be truly audience safe for a three hour show though.

If your ears are ringing after the event, you have permanent hearing loss. Congratulations.

Buy plugs. Always use them.
 
A-weighted or C-weighted is personal preference. A-weighted best corresponds to local ordinances as most do not recognize or have adequate language in regards to C-weighted. C-weighted better corresponds to human perception at higher levels, but really so long as you understand the difference, adjust accordingly, and always use one or the other scale consistently you should be fine unless you are putting on shows with a lot of LF. This venue doesn't sound like it does that though.

In general, C-weighted will produce higher results than A-weighted if you have lots of LF. dBC will usually be about 5dB higher than dBA for rock/pop music, so if you set a limit of 96dBA, you would probably see 101dBC, give or take, for that musical genre. If it's just a speech event, there will probably be only a marginal difference between the two weightings.

If this was a club or LiveNation type venue, I'd be more concerned about C-weighted being used, but it doesn't really sound like it matters in this venue's application.
 
I work in a historic theatre that our contract states has a very strict 95db c-weighted level that is measured from the center of the balcony. I try to be very understanding and ask that as long as they try to maintain a reasonable db in the 95db area and aren't pushing 103-105db and peaking at 110 plus I will work with them. Our biggest complaint is low end. It vibrates our entire building and that is when my superiors start pushing me to say something about the audio levels. As mentioned before most road crews don't see the info about the db level so I tend to be very up front about it and explain how it works and where it's measured from. We've had bands come in and stand in front of their overly cranked amp and tell me they are getting more than 95db 3 feet in front of the amp and they don't know how they will perform if we make them keep everything under 95db.
 
OK kids... A-weighting in modern measurement situations is just not adequate.

Why, oh why, would you take your LF measurements and toss them?

Are you mixing for radio broadcast?

Your venue doesn't have any subwoofers??? Doubtful.

Please, please, please start using C-weighting at least. your measurements will be more accurate and your volumes will be more considerate.

I have to carry plugs with me at all modern events that I go to. Small, large, it doesn't matter.

102dB C-weighted peaks and cruising at 90-96dB C-weighted averages (fast vs. slow) at the center of the event seems to be what satisfies most. The people next to the array will go deaf and the people at the back can still hear the hi-hat.

It is still too loud to be truly audience safe for a three hour show though.

If your ears are ringing after the event, you have permanent hearing loss. Congratulations.

Buy plugs. Always use them.
Amen to plugs. I invested ($230 or so, thru my HMO) in custom-molded plugs, with changable filters so I can swap out 9, 15 and 25db attenuation, plus they give you "stopper" caps that are useful for chain saw massacres, etc.
 
@Jay Ashworth My understanding as well. Think there's an error in that language and they didn't actually mean "Purchaser retains the right to determine appropriate sound levels...", which defeats the purpose of the clause altogether.
 
@Jay Ashworth My understanding as well. Think there's an error in that language and they didn't actually mean "Purchaser retains the right to determine appropriate sound levels...", which defeats the purpose of the clause altogether.
There are a couple of things that make it basically silly and unenforceable as written, but offering up language isn't why I'm here...

I think the real reason(s) for this kind of injected contract language needs to be addressed. If the venue is booking the acts, it would be smart if the venue was reasonably familiar with the nature and style of the act's performance. Booking a KISS tribute act when the sponsors and Board members are wanting more along the lines of Joni Mitchell's SPLs.... uh... "what are ya thinkin', lads?" Even things you might not expect to be loud will have their moments - Lee Greenwood (God Bless the USA) shows perc along around 90-92 dBA but will hit 102 dBC when the show climaxes, and when every blue-hair in the crowd is singing along it gets louder. You never know. :discoball:

All the punting back and forth over SPL needs to be resolved. Not saying that limits should not be imposed but that the core reasons SPL has become an issue need to be squarely addressed, otherwise the limit, no matter what it is or how monitored or calculated, is just an arbitrary number to be used in the contest.

And the other thing (you knew there was one more, right?) - The venue TD needs to do the advance with someone actually touring with the act: a production manager, lighting or sound person... even the driver of the Winnebago... Because talking to artist management or booking agent is like talking to a used car salesman.
 
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Invariably the "artist" will have their favorite Sanyo karaoke mic that they will demand to use because everything else is just the wrong sonic "color"...
nuthinwringwitdat.gif

Oh foo, this isn't the "artist" bashing post.

Sorry.

We now return you to your original programming.
 
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