Video projection with conductor monitor

[kennah]

Hi everyone. Looking for some advice on a setup that needs to be done semi regularly around here. We've had to do it a few different ways and none of them have been making anyone happy. The basic of it is, the projector and playback generally live in the booth about 300' away from where the conductor needs a mirrored video signal of what the projector is projecting to he can conduct. This signal needs to be as zero latency as possible. We've gotten it close with video splitters and television, but it's quite good enough, and has no flexibility for the few times that we need to run video from back stage. The source signal comes from a Mac Mini (QLab) but sometimes would also come from other sources, so flexibility is a major requirement.

Any advice? thoughts? I'm interested in low cost and high cost ideas/ideals.

Thanks!

 

[ruinexplorer]

Are you looking at running permanent lines and just temporarily adding equipment or everything will be temporary?

Do you currently have the same native resolution for the monitor and the projector? If they are not the same resolution/frequency as the source, then the display will require processing which ends up adding some latency. When you are using a splitter, is it passive or are you actually using a distribution amplifier? If you have a scaling switcher, you can handle a variety of input signals with minimal added latency.

Do you need a system that can be handled by absolutely anyone or do you have skilled employees who will be taking charge?

I don't want to just throw a bunch of gear at you saying that this is all you need without knowing a little more.

 

[kennah]

Thanks for the questions. The equipment will need to be setup and struck as there are no modifications allowed to the theatre (and it doesn't have existing video lines) plus the potential to tour. So it would be nice if it could exist in some sort of box/rack. But that could be sourced locally. The monitor for the conductor would be purchased. The projector is a CLM-R10+ _for now_. It will likely change in the future/soon. Usually a distro amp is used, but often we're at the mercy of what the AV Rental company happens to bring. Optimally a system that 'anyone' can use, but someone who is reasonably skilled in projection will always be on the call.

Currently the only equipment that is owned is the Mac Mini source. Everything else is rental. Looking into something that is consistent and reliable.

 

[ruinexplorer]

Your projector is SXGA+ (1400x1050) native resolution. Since you won't find a monitor with that same resolution, you will need one of the displays to do some additional processing. I run into the same issue (projectors at the same resolution), my monitors are UXGA (1600x1200) which results in me choosing the monitors (used for confidence display) as the secondary display from the DA. This is a result of wanting the projector to have the ideal image. I did not need to worry about latency in the same way you do.

We have several threads here about latency and conductor monitors that you can search about some specific equipment, but here are some recommendations.

If you are going to purchase everything, then I suggest going 1080 since both displays should match. Obviously you may need to change your content to wide screen if you aren't already there.
The other benefit to going to a broadcast standard is that you can use HD-SDI which uses a co-axial cable and affords longer runs than other digital formats. This will also make it easier to distribute your signal as there will be little processing after the initial source.

 

[kennah]

Sounds good. Did you have any specific gear recommendations? We've been looking at Black Magic, but I'm open to other vendors. There's no camera, so a delay from the source is acceptable as long as it is the same delay on both the projection and the monitor.

 

[ruinexplorer]

I like Black Magic. One of the good things is that they have pretty much everything you need. There are plenty of good projectors out there. If you are sticking with a single unit, you may want to consider something like a DPI Titan or a Panasonic PTZ series projector. I like the Christie M series which might also serve you well. I haven't used the newer Barco units, but they are just as fine if you want to stick with that brand.

Let me see if I can put something together and I'll get back to you tomorrow.

 

[kennah]

That's great. Don't worry so much about the projector. We'll likely be stuck with what we have for a while. Currently it has RGB BNC HD inputs or DVI, but it isn't out of the question to buy an SDI card for it. The more important part is getting the synched conductor monitor and a reliable 300' cable run.

 

[kennah]

SO I'm thinking of the following path.

Mac Mini HDMI --> Black Magic ATEM Television switcher.
One SDI output converted to DVI for the Barco with a Black Magic Mini Converter SDI - HDMI
Other converted to Fiber and sent over a 150M Cable to the conductor Television which has another SDI - HDMI mini Converter. (or could just get a TV that has SDI input)0

It isn't out of the question to have the projector have a patching 150meter run of cable just coiled up next to it so the latency matches. Is that ridiculous? It might be best to have the exact same setup for both output devices. (SDI - Fiber Mini converter --> 150M Cable --> Fiber - SDI Mini converter --> SDI - HDMI Mini Converter).

 

[ruinexplorer]

Honestly, this may still not work for you. SDI is limited in its supported resolutions. Your projector is definitely not one of them, which means that it will need to be scaled by the projector. Your monitor to the conductor, depending on what you get, may not have an issue. The problem isn't necessarily the cable length, but what needs to be processed.

If you are not planning on changing projectors, then you want to get the largest monitor that is running 1600x1200 (you won't get 1400x1050) with DVI input. To best solve your current issue, I will recommend what you would need based off of this situation.
Mac Mini HDMI --> Roland Pro A/V V-800HD (this will give you room to grow)
Switcher --> DVI DA
DVI DA--> projector (Use output 1)
DVI DA--> monitor This will not be a standard DVI cable. Your best bet will be a fiber cable.

Alternatively, if you need to save some money, you could potentially leave out the DA, use the DVI output to the projector (the second output is generally used for a local program monitor) and then use the analog VGA to send to the monitor. You would need an adapter and a couple 5-wire BNC cables (you could get one made long enough). This does open yourself up to issues with analog interference such as hum bars, but that shouldn't be an issue since this is for the conductor. You would need to make sure your monitor either had 5-wire input or would need to convert back to VGA (actually DB-15 or a variety of other names for that connector). By using analog, you should run into less problem with latency, but increase the risk of interference.

 

[kennah]

Thanks for the super specific recommendations! That seems to be more in line with what I'm looking for. As long as the latency between what is projected and what the conductor sees it should do the trick. The only problem I'm seeing (and maybe I forgot to mention?) Sometimes the projector is the thing that is 300' away if we need to run the video source from the stage instead of from the projection booth (as we need to for some of our shows). I like the look of that switcher though. We have to do Composite Beta or DVD for the shows sometimes...

 

[kennah]

Money isn't so much an issue, as this will be done as a capitol expense over many years.

 

[ruinexplorer]

If money isn't the issue, then I'd go with the all DVI option. DVI and HDMI both use the same basic language and DisplayPort will easily adapt to lower resolutions of both of them. That should give you a certain amount of life out of the system. The only other thing you may need to add is an EDID emulator for the fiber run. This will provide the proper information for the display.

 

[kennah]

Oh wow. I looked into that Roland Switcher, and while it is amazing and perfect, I'm pretty sure I'll get shut down for an 11,000$ purchase, lol. I'll still put it forward, but what are some options in the 1,000-5,000 range?