Vocal/Band Reverb configuration?

[avkid]

This is just reinforce my point about "pure" drums.
6 piece mic kit with special mics for each drum and two 57's for OH.

 

[Eboy87]

no comment necessary.

 

[jkowtko]

A couple of things to keep in mind, the techniques used for recording vs live sound are different, mainly due to the fact that in live sound you still will get the original sound from the actual instrument in the venue. In a large venue, where the original actual instrument sound is likely to not be heard many of these techniques can be used, in a small venue where the actual instrument sound can be heard, there is a real problem of significant non complimentary effect.
Especially on Drums it is likely that your SRM450'S Unless you have a sub woofer are not going to get the desired effect on the kick you are looking for
In a super high end pa, with proper subs, etc, some folks would start with a system that uses aux fed subs so that only the inputs you want to cover the low end would be sent to the subs, and to further clean up the sound some hign end designs for examble with Dave Rat (RHCP) would go with a pa for vocals and a pa for instruments.
Sharyn

Sharon,

I actually do have a pair of SRS1500s. I will have them directly below each SRM450 (which are hung about 14' off the stage floor). I've also put all speakers on the front plane of the bandstand to avoid delay issues and hopefully blend the sound.

The subs are fed off my LR outs, driven from the group outs which run the SRM450s -- unfortunately I need all of the aux sends for other stuff. However I will probaly set High pass filter on all except the kick and the bass ... does that sound right?

Also, since I have two subs I can also play them in stereo. Should I?

Thanks. John

 

[avkid]

Yep, HPF on everything but kick and bass.

As for stereo subs, it's really a personal preference thing.

 

[avkid]

no comment necessary.

I don't want your store brand cookie.

 

[Dillon]

stereo subs

Ditch the stereo subs -- you don't need a stereo image for frequencies that low. If anyone actually notices the stereo effect, they aren't paying enough attention to the show. Run your subs in mono, driven from the mono out of your board. I've been doing this for a couple years now and have been quite pleased with the results. I finally have something to put on that third master fader, and I can really feel out the show and drive the subs hotter whenever it feels right to do so. You'll need a third crossover channel to accomplish this -- this could even be built into your board (I don't remember what you're using anymore, now that I'm 3 pages into this discussion) -- just LPF the mono signal.

 

[avkid]

That would be a good plan if he wasn't using a CFX.
Stereo main outputs on one fader.

Oh yeah, a used 32 channel Mackie can be had for about $500 if you know where to look.(and I do, so just PM me)

That might solve a bunch of issues, including the aux sends(1-4 mono 5 and 6 are stereo).

 

[jkowtko]

If I'm upgrading the board my current top choices are A&H GL2200 or 2400 for analog, and a Yamaha 01v96 for digital.

I don't think I'll buy another Mackie console -- I want to step up, and the Mackie 8-bus doesn't seem as well suited as A&H or 01v96 for my usage. If the $500 board you are referencing is something other than the 8-bus, let me know which model.

Unfortunately, another board is a bit out of the running right now (tech in 10 days) unless a deal comes along that is too good for me to pass up.

In the meantime, the Mackie CFX has a "sub-out" but it uses a hardwired 75Hz LPF which probably won't work. The crossover that seems to work for these speakers is around 100 and I have EQ available for both subs and mains.

So I run the mains off of group 3 & 4, and run the subs off of LR. Groups 3 and 4 are routed to LR. This gives me a fader for the subs, stereo or mono, the same fader

 

[avkid]

I was talking about the old workhorse four bus desks.

Somebody offered me one for $300 a while back, I'm still kicking myself.

 

[SHARYNF]

Sharon,
I actually do have a pair of SRS1500s. I will have them directly below each SRM450 (which are hung about 14' off the stage floor). I've also put all speakers on the front plane of the bandstand to avoid delay issues and hopefully blend the sound.
The subs are fed off my LR outs, driven from the group outs which run the SRM450s -- unfortunately I need all of the aux sends for other stuff. However I will probaly set High pass filter on all except the kick and the bass ... does that sound right?
Also, since I have two subs I can also play them in stereo. Should I?
Thanks. John

The main issue you will run into I believe is again the conflict with the live sound vs the reinforced sound, and the open mics, Metallica for instance goes with a gating system that is gated by the actual vibration on the item to be mic'd vs using an audio gate. If you were in a high isolation environment all those mics and gates would work, but in a smaller, high bleed environment you are more likely to have problems with bleed when the gate opens, and also the live vs reinforced sound. You could experiment with a gate/compressor setup on kick and snare. IN general in a smallish setup fewer mics is better, the musicians should be able to control their balance. Since I think you use headphones, the drummer should be able to get the balance correct

In general I don't recommend even going with stereo for any of the pa in this size system/venue
The idea of aux fed subs is that you control what is fed to the subs at the source so you can dramatically clean up the sound. Eq remember is listed at the frequency center point, there is still quite a bit of signal being fed thru as you move away from the center point. If you control what source is being fed the the subs you get a lot more control

Sharyn

 

[TimmyP1955]

Mics and gates? It depends on the type of sound you want.
If you want an "open, airy" sound, a kick and a couple of good overheads should do, and you may or may not need to gate the kick.
If you want to add a lot of "fat and feel", you'll want to mic the drums individually and gate the kick and all the toms. (If you don't gate, the toms will drone on forever.) The trouble with 57s on toms for this tyoe of sound is that they pick up a lot of the rest of the kit, making gates very difficult to use.
They less stuff you have running through a given reverb unit, the better the reverb will sound (unless it is a VERY good reverb). I have a big, smooth verb for hat and toms (and occasionally something else, depending on the song), a small verb (for whatever needs a small verb on a particular song), a snare verb (that varies depending on the song), and a vocal verb (that varies depending on the song). If I need an effect on an instrument, I'll switch the small verb to an effect. If the effect is for the vocal, I'll switch the vocal verb to an effect, and use the large or small verb on the vocal if it also needs a verb. The snare verb is fed by the snare's direct out - the level is set by the return. The vocal verb is fed by a group out (the group is not routed to the main mix). The large and small verbs are fed by auxes.
I find that a lot of factory reverb presets are way too bright - you get more highs out than you put in! Adjust them for a more natural sound (Dark Side of the Moon, The Wall, the first Black Sabbath album). And make sure that the reverb is not too thick on the bottom, which can sound messy pretty quickly.

 

[mixmaster]

Channel[/autolink] lineup as planned:
1) kick (EV RE20)
2) snare (Sennheiser 421)
3) tom (sm57)
4) tom (sm57)
5) tom (sm57 - this one may be optional)
6) hihat (Sennheiser 421)
7) ride or overhead (AT Pro37R)
8) crash or overhead (AT Pro37R)
The decision on cymbals vs overheads will be based on other percussion that needs to be picked up.
Gate/compressor on all above 8 channels (I have four DBX 266XLs)
9) keyboard (line out)
10) sax (sm57)
11) guitar (sm57)
12) bass (sm57)
Not 100% sure of the order of the last four ...
SO, my real question is on musical content, i.e. where do you usually apply reverb on bands, and what types of reverb are commonly used? Hopefully the above gives you enough info to form some good opinions
Thanks. John

I thought I might chime in with a my 2 cents worth.
1) in reference to your input list. Swap your snare and sax mics. I am doing a Jazz thing today and tomorrow and have 421s on on all my saxes and 57s on my snare and Toms. I might also suggest a better condenser on the hihat for a brighter sound. FWIW, I use an SM81.
2) I typically gate the kick and toms in live settings to prevent the mic on one drum from picking up 3 other drums also. I occasionally also gate out unwanted reverberations from the drum to eliminate some low end mud in the drum mix.
3)Other dynamics. I comp my vocals. By channel insert if I have enough comps or by inserting on the group. I occasionally comp the bass VERY LIGHTLY. this lets me bring them more into the mix and fill out the bottom without worrying about them slapping a couple of extra notes real hard here and there. I have gated real noisy guitar amps sometimes. I even had to gate a real noisy system once I have comped the monitors occasionaly but rarely do I comp the mains. Thats what the limiters on the amps are for.
4) Effects. I typically set up two reverb units, SPX990s. The first 990 gets sent the vocals from an aux send. I prefer larger halls with medium decay times for vocals. The second 990 would be for acoustic instruments like your sax. I typically send this from an aux also but it could come off an insert. If I have the time to set a third effects unit and feel the need, I bring out my Lexicon MPX and pull up a short tap delay for the percussion. Usually the snare and any other short, sharp sounding instruments. I rarely find the need to put extra reverb on anything else. Typically toms and kicks are boomy enough. I rarely put effects on electric guitars, keyboards, or electronic drums. I figure, with all of the buttons and pedals they have, they are sending me exactly what they want their instrument to sound like and its not my place to change that.

Most importantly, use your ears. If something doesn't sound right, that's why there is a bypass button or an on/off switch. I patch a lot of stuff that doesn't end up getting used but thats better than not having it if you decide that you want it mid show.
Best of luck

 

[jkowtko]

Thanks you guys -- these are the types of comments/input I'm looking for. Yes, ultimately I'll need to play with the equipment and figure out what sounds right ... then work with the Director to understand the type of "sound" they're looking for in the show and for certain numbers ... but definitely helps to hear what other people have done and have a bunch of options up my sleeve for trying different options when things don't sound quite right.