What are people typically doing for major overhauls these days

[gafftaper]

My sister school is rocking a 28 year old EDI system. Problems with the dimmer rack. Problems on the relay panel and architectural control side. The house lights are 250 watt Par 56's. It's going to need a full overhaul. The only positive is they have an Element and a dozen ColorSource PARs. The person in my position there is more of a stage manager so I'm heading over to really get under the hood and figure out exactly what is there, how things are setup, what needs to be done etc.

I'm curious what people are doing for major upgrades:
-Full one-for-one replacement of dimmer racks, relays, architectural control, house lights... etc.
-Some sort of hybrid system using incandescent fixtures and LED fixtures. Maybe some distributed dimming in the house and lots of relays everywhere else. Stay with existing house lights and find a good LED Par 56.
-Go all relays and LEDs.
-Other?

What do you think is the best approach? What do you think is cheapest and most expensive?

I would love to hear your opinions as I start to wade into this mess.

 

[DaveySimps]

I guess it really comes down to available budget. We recently passed a bond in my district, after a few failed attempts to do so. I will get about $150,000 in a couple of years to upgrade my system. I have a long-failing Entertainment Technology dimming system and still Run Horizon software for lighting. I have been researching solutions to phasing out our incandescent system, and am finding that the $150,000 will not go as far for us as I would like. I would love to move to a hybrid system with ColorSource fixtures, and some LED cyc clights. Still researching what will work for us.

I am interested in following this thread to see what others have expirenced.

~Dave

 

[STEVETERRY]

If budget can be found, going all LED luminaires and switched control of branch circuits is the preferable route, given the 28-year age of the current system. Investing in new "in the wall" infrastructure to support tungsten luminaires is not a good long-term investment.

ST

 

[MNicolai]

If they have a lot of money into fixtures, then a hybrid makes sense only as a means of easing the transition to LED.

If there's not much worth saving fixture-wise, might as well gut and pull the pin on the LED grenade. In which case you don't need 1:1 swapping relays for dimmer. A medium size space might only need 24 or 48 relay ckts. If the existing raceways and conductors are still in decent shape, you can bridge a bunch of those receptacles/pigtails together because quantity of receptacles is more important than quantity of branch circuits.

Plus the obligatory DMX distribution if they don't have infrastructure for that already. Though wireless is much more accessible if wired drops would mean new cabling/conduits.

In terms of house lighting, I would probably try to get an architectural fixture more than a PAR-style fixture, and make sure you're doing everything you need to for the purposes of life safety egress lighting. (if you have bug eyes, may not be a big deal -- if your house lights are your only real lighting, then egress illumination really needs be considered when looking at any solution).

Cheapest? Turning a few receptacles at each position into constant power and deploying Colorsource Relays and going wireless DMX.

Modest? Swapping the dimmer rack for relay panelboards and wired or wireless DMX.

Most expensive? Replacing 1:1 with Sensor3 and ThruPower modules, which almost certainly is overkill in this application.

 

[RonHebbard]

My sister school is rocking a 28 year old EDI system. Problems with the dimmer rack. Problems on the relay panel and architectural control side. The house lights are 250 watt Par 56's. It's going to need a full overhaul. The only positive is they have an Element and a dozen ColorSource PARs. The person in my position there is more of a stage manager so I'm heading over to really get under the hood and figure out exactly what is there, how things are setup, what needs to be done etc.

I'm curious what people are doing for major upgrades:
-Full one-for-one replacement of dimmer racks, relays, architectural control, house lights... etc.
-Some sort of hybrid system using incandescent fixtures and LED fixtures. Maybe some distributed dimming in the house and lots of relays everywhere else. Stay with existing house lights and find a good LED Par 56.
-Go all relays and LEDs.
-Other?

What do you think is the best approach? What do you think is cheapest and most expensive?

I would love to hear your opinions as I start to wade into this mess.

@gafftaper First and foremost I'd ensure everything overhead, flown and / or fixed, is safe and secure.
Good illumination is important but not at the expense of inadequate / under rated / shoddily installed overhead rigging.
Think POSITIVE.
Test NEGATIVE.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

 

[ACTSTech]

My sister school is rocking a 28 year old EDI system. Problems with the dimmer rack. Problems on the relay panel and architectural control side. The house lights are 250 watt Par 56's. It's going to need a full overhaul. The only positive is they have an Element and a dozen ColorSource PARs. The person in my position there is more of a stage manager so I'm heading over to really get under the hood and figure out exactly what is there, how things are setup, what needs to be done etc.

I'm curious what people are doing for major upgrades:
-Full one-for-one replacement of dimmer racks, relays, architectural control, house lights... etc.
-Some sort of hybrid system using incandescent fixtures and LED fixtures. Maybe some distributed dimming in the house and lots of relays everywhere else. Stay with existing house lights and find a good LED Par 56.
-Go all relays and LEDs.
-Other?

What do you think is the best approach? What do you think is cheapest and most expensive?

I would love to hear your opinions as I start to wade into this mess.

We're in the process of a major renovation and even though we weighed LEDs, we have to go with traditional incandescent as well as fluorescent. The issue was not so much control side as it was cost. I think that if there's a lot of traffic in the venue, and you can justify the cost vs electric savings, you can stomach the initial hit or finance it. In our case, the infrastructure is old and to bring it up to date (or even bring it out of the 1950s) it would have never paid itself off. Not knowing the problems with the system, I'd say the easiest approach is identify if the racks are faulty or if the gremlin in the system can be pushed into the corner. If you can remove half of the dimmers and take a hybrid approach, that would help. Our plan is to have 48 dimmers for traditional incandescents and then run separate lines for non-dimmable like the ColorSource PARs you mentioned. In the meantime, if we need, we can plug in portable dimmer packs and run some extra DMX lines if we need the room. If you can afford the price, obviously LED is the way to go.

As a side note, I have instruments that are older than the 28 year old EDI system that your sister school is rocking. We're renovating a building that was last renovated in 1931, so it's probably apples to oranges. I'd take that 28 year old system, problems and all!

 

[Lextech]

Since I'm sitting in the main space, I'll just talk this venue. We are phasing in replacements and upgrades. My university electrician found a LED PAR56 drop in replacement for our house lights that line dims. Note that we don't have par cans, but a house light that takes a PAR lamp. As a road house I won't replace all of my dimmers for relays, but I have swapped a bunch of modules, as we still need our S4 fixtures. If budget was no issue, I would consider an all LED rig, if I could find a LED front light I was in love with. The question I would ask is what is the fixture inventory like? If it was all 6 by and PAR I would seriously look more towards all LED. If I had a serious investment in S4s, hybrid might be a good plan.

 

[RonHebbard]

We're in the process of a major renovation and even though we weighed LEDs, we have to go with traditional incandescent as well as fluorescent. The issue was not so much control side as it was cost. I think that if there's a lot of traffic in the venue, and you can justify the cost vs electric savings, you can stomach the initial hit or finance it. In our case, the infrastructure is old and to bring it up to date (or even bring it out of the 1950s) it would have never paid itself off. Not knowing the problems with the system, I'd say the easiest approach is identify if the racks are faulty or if the gremlin in the system can be pushed into the corner. If you can remove half of the dimmers and take a hybrid approach, that would help. Our plan is to have 48 dimmers for traditional incandescents and then run separate lines for non-dimmable like the ColorSource PARs you mentioned. In the meantime, if we need, we can plug in portable dimmer packs and run some extra DMX lines if we need the room. If you can afford the price, obviously LED is the way to go.

As a side note, I have instruments that are older than the 28 year old EDI system that your sister school is rocking. We're renovating a building that was last renovated in 1931, so it's probably apples to oranges. I'd take that 28 year old system, problems and all!

@ACTSTech In all seriousness; we have an amateur venue in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada with electrical circuits pulled through their no longer in use gas pipes. The circuits pulled through the gas pipes have their neutrals switched rather than their hots / live conductors.
Don't ask me how I learned this.
Think POSITIVE.
Test NEGATIVE.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

 

[hoosierman]

We're in the initial stages of working through the same decisions as you. Same age EDI system...weighing a myriad of options... which in the end, will all come down to money. Fortunately for us, our EDI system was been well cared for and continues to be reliable. We're positioning ourselves to get between two and three more years out of the current system, while working on upgrade options and specs. As most know who work for a school system, it'll take that amount of time to put in place the plan and the funding for the upgrade.

 

[hoosierman]

Meant to add this attachment. It's a response from a thread on a similar theme for a week or so ago. Check it out. Steve , at Lite-Trol, has been a tremendous help to us on options with an aged EDI system.

 

[hoosierman]

Since I'm sitting in the main space, I'll just talk this venue. We are phasing in replacements and upgrades. My university electrician found a LED PAR56 drop in replacement for our house lights that line dims. Note that we don't have par cans, but a house light that takes a PAR lamp. As a road house I won't replace all of my dimmers for relays, but I have swapped a bunch of modules, as we still need our S4 fixtures. If budget was no issue, I would consider an all LED rig, if I could find a LED front light I was in love with. The question I would ask is what is the fixture inventory like? If it was all 6 by and PAR I would seriously look more towards all LED. If I had a serious investment in S4s, hybrid might be a good plan.

What kind of hybrid numbers have you arrived at? We fall into the category of a road house that is oddly enough operated through our local school district. The mix of performance runs the full range of offerings. How do you interface existing infrastructure and retain the original design functionality of the 1:1 dimming rig. We have a significant inventory of S4's...even a fleet of still functioning Altman 1KL6's. Numerous Quantum washes and Profiles, Chauvet MK3 washes, and CFII12 and 48 strips, that are all powered from a Presidential distro. The option to replace all incandescent inventory with LED isn't realistic. And I won't go into the house lighting discussion...yet.

 

[tyler.martin]

A couple years back I designed a Cafetorium system for a high school that was in a similar situation. We ended up going all LED mainly because the local utility covered a big chunk of the cost, secondary only to issues with students working on ladders to replace lamps

. Ripped out an EDI rack, put in a Sensor IQ panel (circuit density needed) put up as many ColorSource fixtures as we could fit, put in an Element 2, and put in a small (8 lines) network for DMX distribution. The house lights were done by a different consultant, but we added Echo line dimmers and button stations. Total installed budget was 165k in Canuckbucks.

 

[gafftaper]

Well, there are a lot of issues over there. We're going to try to get some information from the district about their long-term renovation plans for the school. We're going to begin by finding out how long they expect it will be before they do major work at the school.

The dimmers are old, hard to get parts for but functioning. There's an Element in the booth, a good size collection of sourcefours, Colorsource PARS for down light, and I forgot that they bought Chauvet Ovation Batten cyc lights. They run HPL 575'S, so a bunch of Source 4WRDs for the wash and they could go all LED fairly easily which is interesting.

The big issue is the relay and architectural controls. Some of the panels in different parts of the theater don't work. Some of the buttons get hot when in use. Second electric work lights can't turn on... It's a real mess. Also weird. There are two EDI dimmer racks with 196 dimmers and also in the rack are 12 circuits for the house lights which can not be controlled by the light board. House lights can only be controlled by wall panels. I'm not sure how that works. Does anyone know how that worked? Is it something in how the rack controller is setup or is it some how wired so it can not be dmx controlled. Is it possible that even though the house lights are located in the rack that are some sort of analog control?

So the primary concern is replacing the architectural controls. Multiple elements are of it are broken and our local repair shop says they have done all the repairs they can.

@Lextech can you send me information about that LED PAR 56 you are using?

 

[tjrobb]

Something else to think about is safety. Do you have positions that are difficult or dangerous to access? (We have to walk on the ceiling for our house cans..) Any place like that is a prime choice for LED.

Also also, are there positions where you're frequently needing "just one more circuit?" The lower wattage of LED allows... creative wiring to share circuits.

I feel LED is the way to go, but in light of a budget these are some considerations as to where to best place them.

 

[lwinters630]

Meant to add this attachment. It's a response from a thread on a similar theme for a week or so ago. Check it out. Steve , at Lite-Trol, has been a tremendous help to us on options with an aged EDI system.

Great product from Johnson. I replaced two units in my EDI mark VII racks. They are easily programable and fit right in.

 

[josh88]

We're going the hybrid route. As a roadhouse, some of our shows still require incandescent. All the lighting we've bought in the last 5 years has at least been LED but mostly movers (specifically Chauvet Rogue R2 Washes with some Maverick profiles sometime this/next year) as well with constant power and colorsource relays and Showbabies for DMX distribution.

All our architectural lighting (except house lights) got converted to led this year and we'd love to move to full led on the stage but just can't yet.

 

[macsound]

I was going to ask if Source4WRDs are not an option for some reason? In the applications I've had, they work very well either with an existing dimmer or using DMX. I've liked this because depending on the hang position, you can still use the same fixture.

Second question is about egress and general lighting. Could you get a simple and cheap highbay LED lighting system that can be used for worklights and meetings and reserve the PAR56 houselights for actual shows? I'm thinking something like this.

 

[RickR]

A partial answer on the HL dimmers in the rack. EDI as best I remember, did both multi inputs and/or a soft patch.

I've seen analog from wall controls and DMX from the console. With so much custom work almost anything could have happened.