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What is my problem?

Discussion in 'Sound, Music, and Intercom' started by Anonymous067, Aug 6, 2008.

  1. Anonymous067

    Anonymous067 BANNED USER

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    /...with my sound system..../

    We're doing a week long program at our church.
    I'm running sound as well as playing the keys.

    Today I walked in, turned on systems, all went normal.
    After a while, I tried turning the wireless rack of lavs on. Nothing.
    the lavs only go through the mains, no monitors (I"m using three monitor lines).

    Soon, I realized it wasn't just the lavs, it was EVERYTHING not going through the mains, and it was actually going through monitors.
    so. I began the trouble shooting. I checked my signal, and found the signal to be connected, routed, etc etc properly all the way to the main outs of the board.

    After this point, the cable goes under the floor, back to the sound room, (amps, processors, etc etc.)

    Nothing had been changed from last night til this morning.
    Why is no sound coming out of my mains????

    PS. The outputs of the board go to an automixer, which also has channels from the Ambo, and three wireless channels (which don't go through the wireless rack).
    These channels work just fine.

    WHAT is my problem???????
     
  2. DaveySimps

    DaveySimps CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Does your system have a sequencer that everything plugs into to turn it on and off in the right order? If so, perhaps this is not turning everything on as it should. I have had one go bad on me before and it took me by surprise. You will also want to make sure all of your amps to your mains turn on as they should, and your Signal processors (DSP, crossover, eq's, etc.) are all on and unmuted. It never hurts to check the actual connections in the back of the board and on each unit. For installed rack items, it is not unusual for thigs to come loose over time. Also, just check the cabeling, perhaps a solder connection in the connector for your board is bad, even though the connector is good. Just some additional trouble shooting thought off of the top of my head.

    ~Dave
     
  3. Eboy87

    Eboy87 Well-Known Member

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    DSP muted was my first thought. You say nothing has been changed since the last time you ran the system. I'd still suggest actually making sure the patches are correct for the snake. Run a CD into a channel route it to the outs in doubt, and watch the meters every piece of gear in the signal chain. When you get to one that the meter isn't showing anything, the problem lies upstream from that.

    Oh yes, check to make sure the mains are still connected to the amps, and the amps are actually turned on. Had a friend of mine get burned that way once.
     
  4. Hughesie

    Hughesie Well-Known Member

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    Check the desk meterbridge for any activity first, then your dsp then amps.
     
  5. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    I believe this very predicament is why the Qbox
    [​IMG]
    was invented: to check the signal patch at each and every step along the way.

    Most would say to go in order from the mic element to the speaker cone, but it may be faster to start in the middle, and keep dividing in half until you find the culprit. I think [user]ship[/user] just mentioned the proper term for the methodology for this, but I can't remember it just now.
     
  6. Anonymous067

    Anonymous067 BANNED USER

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    All amps are working properly. I power cycled the entire system.
    Maybe I mentioned in my original post, the outs from the board go to an automixer, along with the Ambo mic, and three channels of wireless.
    All the other channels of the Auto Mixer are heard through the mains. Just not the output of the board.
    PS. My monitors still work out of the board.
    I have checked my entire signal path, and found that my signal is reaching the main mix of my board. (When doing this, I did find my meters were acting up. great...another problem).

    All DSP is unmuted.
    Only part of the system I don't know that well is the distributed audio system.
    It deals with sending the main mono mix to classrooms, offices, fellowship halls, kitch, etc etc.

    To my knowledge, all it does it mute outputs, not specific inputs. I have no knowledge of how this system is set up, I understand the system in whole, just not this small aspect of it.
    Is this control panel (with all the mutes in it) considered a DSP?

    Any other advice?
     
  7. DaveySimps

    DaveySimps CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    It really sounds like the issue may be with the automixer channels the board is into. Is there any way you can bypass that, if only for troubleshooting purposes? Also, I would highly suspect that the cabeling from the board to the mixer has possible issues, but that is hard to check in an installed system (unless you have x-ray conduit vision). Is there any way you can reroute these lines? Perhaps using tielines in a patchbay?

    It is hard to get a sense of your distributed audio system. Does it have a make and model on it? Perhaps then we might be able to give more advice.

    ~Dave
     
  8. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Derek, you would be talking about a binary approach...

    It does sound like the automixer might not me automixing properly... Does it have XLR ins and outs such that you might be able to bypass it for troubleshooting?

    You say your mons are working fine, are you able / have you tried patching those outputs into the main system or vice versa to try and track down the fault?

    Now I work with cabling day in and day out and with the exception of things like obvious nicks or prolonged abuse, cabling normally fails at or very close to a flex point. Things like a horizontally mounted connector with a sharp fall off out of the boot. Given time and potentially an originally poor solder joint, the mechanical stress on that joint can literally cause the wire to disconnect. That, or you get internal flex damage at the flex point...

    I don't recall reading anything about whether you have a stereo system, I presume not if you are adding in mono sources with the automix, but I could be wrong. If you do have a stereo setup (from board right through), does one channel work? If it does, can you do a swapsies along the signal chain until you find what causes the fault to swap sides?

    Let us all know what you manage to uncover...
     
    derekleffew likes this.
  9. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    Are you saying that the lavs normally went to the mains but not the monitors and are now going through the monitors but not the mains? Or did you mean that by routing them to the monitors you can get the lavs in the monitors but not in the mains?

    Since you are apparently getting signal from other automixer direct inputs then it at least seems likely that the problem is upstream of the automixer output. Using an external meter or powered speaker or something like that, verify that you are actually getting signal out of the console on the main outputs. If you are, then connect some other audio source in place of the console to the automixer inputs. If that doesn't work from the console end of the wiring, then try going directly into the automixer inputs. This should help narrow down where the problem is occurring. Once you know where in the signal chain the problem occurs, then you can start looking in more detail at what might be causing it. Divide and conquer is the goal.

    It might also help to know the models for the automixer, DSP, etc.
     
  10. Anonymous067

    Anonymous067 BANNED USER

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    Allow me to clarify this.

    We have three hanging clusters on the mains.
    There are two pulpet mics, three wireless, and the outputs from the board going to an automixer.

    These cannot (and willnot) go through the monitor mixs on the board.

    I also have my own rack of 8 wireless lavs that have a dedicated board. The Mono out from this goes into channel whatever in the main board.
    Among other channels, the outs of the main board go to the automixer.
    Outputs of the automixer go to a bunch of units (not sure on all this), which send that signal to the Mains, the fellowship hall, the offices, bride/groom rooms, lounge, classrooms, etc etc. All these rooms aren't configuarble at all. Its just on or off (individually) by going into this digital controller thing.

    The extra lav rack is the only thing that only goes through the board right to the mains, with no monitors, thats why I realized the problem. Monitor mixes don't go through the digital control pad dealio, just from the board right to amps, and then to the floor boxes.

    When I investigated further, I realized that nothing from the main board was reaching the mains (or anything served by the mains, classrooms, etc etc).

    The only lines that go up to the amp room is the LR out from the board, and a cable labled ST1 out (plugged into stereo return 1 on the board...not sure where this plugs into on the other end...).
    The board also has a control room out, which, again, I don't know where it goes to.

    We have no patchbay (this is the really funny part). We have 100+ inputs in our floorboxes. 14 can be patched at one. We have them all in the cables behind the board, and pick which ones we want for each show.

    Bottom line, nothing from the main outs of the board goes anywhere.
    Other inputs of the automixer work just fine.

    Idk really how the control of the distributed audio thing works...we have four 1RU units that say "sound web" on them...idk what they do.

    There are also two control panels (in seperate rooms) that have similar color schemes as the sound web thing, this is how we "mute fellowship hall" or "center speaker only" the church area. (Anybody know anything about this???)

    Thanks so far guys.
     
  11. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    BSS SoundWeb, they are likely the 9000 series (sw9088 8x8 matrix DSP, sw9008 output expander and sw9000 DSP network hub) with a green front panel. If the remotes are also green then they are probably the sw9012 (rotary fader and 5 position rotary select knob), sw9015 (8 position rotary selector and up and down buttons) or sw9010 'Jellyfish' (programmable with LCD panel) remotes. So it sounds like you have a pretty nice matrix DSP system. It might really help you to see if you can find any system drawings or documentation on the DSP programming.
     
  12. Anonymous067

    Anonymous067 BANNED USER

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    I'm also a part of our lighting team.
    Documentation is pretty much non-existent.
     
  13. waynehoskins

    waynehoskins Active Member

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    Aha! Soundwebs!

    Those are your main DSP.

    At The Hall we would occasionally have one of those go out. Failure or configuration problem in one or more of the Soundwebs could make that happen.

    Check the signal indicators, especially input, on the Soundwebs with signal coming from the FOH console. You should also check that some of the output indicators light on them too.

    Also, do the power lights on all of them come on? It works better when you plug it in. :)
     
  14. Anonymous067

    Anonymous067 BANNED USER

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    I don't have access to the back panel of these (to be more specific, I'm at home, and the keys for it are in a cabinet at church, I hope....).

    How SHOULD the four soundweb units be wired?
     
  15. waynehoskins

    waynehoskins Active Member

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    Now that is impossible to answer. But pretty certain your main console outputs should pipe into the inputs of one of them, and signal there should make the lights light up, both input and output.

    If you don't get meters on the Soundwebs with signal coming from the console, first check that there's actually signal on the cables tied to the inputs.

    Since it just stopped working, that's usually a catastrophic failure, like the first Soundweb in the chain going kaput. The others probably get their signal from the first.

    There's fancy Soundweb configuration software out there that will let you drag-and-drop processing widgets in place and configure them. This is probably done once and done right, so unless somebody's gone and pressed the virtual mutes, wherever they are, it's probably okay.
     
  16. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    Both the SoundWeb processors and remotes are programmable, they do nothing until programmed and what they do, including the internal signal routing, is determined by the programming developed for each application. So how a SoundWeb box should be wired and what it does is specific to each individual application. If you do not have any documentation it may be difficult to determine what was intended, even if you could upload the programming in the units from them into the SoundWeb software you would have to have enough familiarity with the programming to understand what is shown.

    However, I thought you had indicated that the console outputs go to an automixer along with several other sources and it is the output of that automixer that feeds the SoundWeb. Since the other sources into the automixer apparently work fine then it seems that the problem would be prior to the automixer output and thus not related to the SoundWeb.
     
  17. Anonymous067

    Anonymous067 BANNED USER

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    This gets really good.

    As I'm thinking about this,
    today, I investigated the soundweb unit.
    I'm discovering that I can "Mute inputs". These inputs were the channels I THOUGHT went straight from the mic, board, etc etc, right to the automixer.

    This isn't the case, because I can go into the Soundweb Jellyfish and select "mute ambo mic" or, "mute music center" (which happens to be the sound board".

    So, obviously the sound web isn't getting one input from the main out of the automix, or it has a data connection with the automix to mute things in connection with the automix? (does this make sense??) for instance, i push "mute music center" on jellyfish, and it sends a signal to the automixer saying "this dude wants to mute input "X".

    Is this logical? Possible?

    I opened up the sound racks today and took a look, but couldn't make any sense of any of it, simply because I was in a hurry, and just looking for something obvious. I did notice those soundweb devices have WAY more cables than JUST audio ins and outs.

    Any more advice?
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2008
  18. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Use one of them new fangled digital cameras abd let us all in on what you are looking at... then we MIGHT be able to make slightly (only slightly) more edumacated guesses...

    Sounds like there might be benefit to spending time mapping out what connects to what how...
     
  19. museav

    museav CBMod CB Mods Departed Member

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    It is probably possible, I believe those units do have some ability to control or communicate with other devices. What I do not understand is why you would have a SoundWeb system and be running the program audio to a separate automixer input, I usually do the opposite either using the DSP as the automixer or running an automixer output as one input to the DSP along with the program audio and other inputs.

    Hopefully the installer put numbers on all the cables. While it would be much easier with system drawings, if there are cable numbers you should at least be able to somewhat figure out what really connects to what.
     
  20. Eboy87

    Eboy87 Well-Known Member

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    Do you have the number for the company that did the install? Perhaps give them a call and have them come out and look into this. The best we can give is educated guesses since we can't see the rig in question.
     

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