What lights should I buy and how much is it going to set me back?

[Dobbins]

Hi, new guy, let me give you some quick background.

I am a 6-12 band director in a small district in Wyoming, and since I have some minor (and I emphasise minor) experience as a theater tech, I have been tasked with selecting lighting equipment to upgrade our very nice auditorium, but we have very little equipment.

Here is what we have right now:

14 Strand Axial Lekolites (6x12, I believe is the proper term)
24 Strand Fresnelites (6x6, same assumption)

Here is what I need to know:

1) I know that all of these lights are still available, but I also know that Strand has been bought and gutted by Philips and that it is now but a shell of what it used to be. Should I still be looking at these lights are do I need an equivilant by another brand? If this is that case, how compatible will they be (gels frames and such)?

2) How much should I expect to spend on each model?

3) I am meeting with a tech company in about a month to discuss and evaluate what we have and what we need. What specifically should I be asking for, be avoiding, and be aware of?

Thanks you for the help.

Kyle Dobbins

 

[Anvilx]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

How big is your stage? What do you use it for?

If you need more ellipsoidal then you will need to purchase enough for a full system. You don't want to mix the lekolites with something new like a source four for a given position, it won't look good. How about a few parcans for a color wash.

 

[thorin81]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

Unfortunately, there is no easy or "cheap" solution to this situation. The thing that will determine most of the decisions that you will need to make is teh size of teh space you are in and the intended use of that space. If you have a large proscenium, stay away from Source 4 Jr. instruments. While their price point is very appealing their function will not serve you well in that space.
Most lighting instruments that are standard for school auditoriums run between $350 - $500 per instrument (depending on where you get them, if they are new/used, etc.) If there is one thing that I can advise it is to TALK TO ANOTHER THEATRE TEACHER IN YOUR AREA BEFORE YOU BUY ANYTHING!! Particularly someone who runs their own space. Often times theatre teachers are separate entities from the Stage Crew/Technical Director who runs the lights, sound, etc. Always talk to those that use similar spaces or have similar experiences before trusting the opinions of your gear dealer!! It is just smart to be a conscientious consumer with such a large purchase.
ETC is the most recognized and "standard" brand for you to look at for lighting instruments. Just for basic knowledge base:

Elipsiodals - face light, shoot a beam of light farther and are more controllable
Fresnels - good wash lights for on stage

Each of these instrument types (and more) are explained and can be found by doing a simple search here in Controlbooth.

If you have any questions, or would llike to discuss needs and opinions for equipment, budget, resources, etc. PM me and I would be glad to contact you!!

Godspeed!!

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

My honest opinion is that this sounds like one of those examples that is the reason why Altman still makes the 360Q and 65Q.

Top of the line? No.

But,

The most expensive? No.
Perfectly serviceable? Yes.

While it would be nice to find the money to buy a new system, I know that's not always possible. People are very quick to jump to "you need all new and its too expensive" without considering other options such as used fixtures OR *gasp* non Source 4 options.

My $0.02

 

[kicknargel]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

All of those lights you have should continue to provide good service. They're a couple generations old, but still in use even in some pro venues. I don't know about finding replacement parts, but gel frames and such shouldn't be a problem.

I agree that you don't want to mix-n-match within one system (like your warm frontlight should be one type of light) but I don't see a problem with adding onto what you already have.

My biggest recommendation would be to hire a pro lighting designer to consult. Someone may do it as a donation, or you can pay for a few hours of time. DON'T trust the people selling you the lights to also tell you what you need.

 

[BillESC]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

Adding more instruments isn't as easy as just buying them and hanging them. You have to plug them in somewhere. Do you have the available dimmers? If not, your cost just significally increased.

What type of lighting do you need? More face light or more wash? If wash is the answer you could consider LED fixtures. With LED fixtures dimming is internal digitally and power draw is minimal. No need for gel as LED fixtures offering RGBAW color mixing are very theatre friendly. Since each fixture can change colors, less total fixtures will be required.

It may be the cost effective approach to take.

 

[Les]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

If I were you, I'd just buy however many Altman 360Q Ellipsoidals and 65Q Fresnels you can afford.

The Altman's should match well -- they should use the same lamp, so you will have the same color temperature. The optics will be a little different, but that shouldn't be a huge deal.

Altman 360Q's are about $200 each and Altman 65Q's are around $100 each.

ETC Source Fours come in at around $300 each, minimum.

 

[JLA]

Hi Kyle ,
I run a Production Co In Jackson Hole .
my web address is iMix Productions - # 1 Full Service Audio Visual Event Production Company in Jackson Hole
Check it out and drop me an e-mail.
I might be able to save you some grief and help you find what you need.
Cheers jeff

 

[JChenault]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

If I were you, I'd just buy however many Altman 360Q Ellipsoidals and 65Q Fresnels you can afford.

The Altman's should match well -- they should use the same lamp, so you will have the same color temperature. The optics will be a little different, but that shouldn't be a huge deal.

I don't think we can say this without some additional investigation. Over the years the lenses in altman units have been made of slightly different colored glass. A Green-cast lens will not have the same color temperature as a clearer glass lens. True - the difference between lamp color is a bigger difference, but don't assume good color match just because of that.

Altman 360Q's are about $200 each and Altman 65Q's are around $100 each.

ETC Source Fours come in at around $300 each, minimum.

Looking at Full Compas, I see the 360Q at $225 or so. The ETC S4 Jr Zoom is $265. If you are looking at shorter throw ( IE a 6x9 to 6x12) and you are not worried about color temperature, I would probably go with the S4 JR in this case. Equivalent light, more flexible ( they zoom) better optics. IE I would likely get enough modern units to replace ( say) my side light units - freeing up my altmans for front of house or specials.

 

[Les]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

I feel like the Altman line will match his current units the best in lieu of getting more of what he already has, which I don't recommend; if even possible.

The 360Q would cost me $226 from BH Photo=Video, but that's including shipping. Base price is $196. I truly think they are the closest and cheapest alternative, which it sounds like he is after.

"If I were you" is not me saying "buy these with no further research". That's just what I would do in his situation. For me, Altman's make more sense because they're easy to work on, and the parts are very available. Keep in mind, I buy lots of used lights on eBay. I have 360Q parts coming out the ying yang. Also, I assume the OP wants fresnels. ETC only has the Parnel, which is not a fresnel.

For his case, yes, maybe more research. If it were me, I'd either buy 360Q's or full-size Source Four's. Nothing in between.

I've been working in a church lately which truly represents all generations of the 360Q line. From old green-lensed 6x9's to new super-reflector outfitted 6x16's. There really isn't much difference between them.

One thing I would like to know is, what model are these "axial lekolites"? I would probably work on phasing them out / re-purposing them thus bypassing the output match all together. As long as you keep your FOH beam together, coves together, etc; color temp and slightly different output shouldn't matter.

 

[gafftaper]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

You need professional help there are just too many factors here for us to make any specific recommendations. Is there a college or university in the area with a tech program? Who does lights at the local community theater? or call JLA above. The ETC Source4 is the workhorse of the industry at around $300. The Source4 Jr. is slightly inferior but costs about $100 less and is often very useful for shorter distances. You mentioned Strand. The Selecon Pacific was a light fixture made in New Zealand by a smaller company. There were in many ways superior to the ETC Source Four, but a little hard to get here in the states and more expensive. Philips purchased Selecon and replaced the Strand product line with Selecons. I have some Selecon Fresnels and they are AWESOME, by far the best fresnel on the market in my opinion. The Selecon Ellipsoidals are amazing for pattern projection and their heat management is spectacular. I don't know if they are still being made in New Zealand or if Strand has messed with production in any way, but do NOT overlook the Strand Selecon light fixtures.

I would avoid buying anything else Source fours or Selecons only, yes you can get other things but they are just inferior in every way. You just won't save that much money by buying a cheaper fixture to make it worth while.

 

[kicknargel]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

Yeah, I can't see ever buying new 360Qs or 65Qs. I'm frankly surprised they still make them. Optics aside, the usability (sticky shutters, tilt knobs, barrel slides, etc) is so inferior to Source 4. With JRs being about the same price, these Altmans are just obsolete.

 

[derekleffew]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

While perhaps not exactly on topic, this thread as well as this one remind me of this video, as mentioned on SML.

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[Les]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

I was just under the impression that the OP was looking for the closest match to a Strand axial 6x12 for as little money as possible. Altman 6x12 seemed like a good choice to me.

Yeah, I can't see ever buying new 360Qs or 65Qs. I'm frankly surprised they still make them.

I'm not. Still a big market for them in elementary/middle schools, smaller churches, and other similar venues where the units will be hung but rarely dealt with. When you just need light, but don't necessarily have a use for the better optics and controls, they're still a good bet. The price gap isn't huge when you're just buying one fixture, but when you're buying 12...

Don't get me wrong, if I was outfitting my own theatre, I'd use Source Four's budget permitting. But if funds were low, I'd rather have more Altman's rather than fewer Source Four's. My life would be a little more frustrating, but sometimes you just need that 'one more special'.

Optics aside, the usability (sticky shutters, tilt knobs, barrel slides, etc) is so inferior to Source 4. With JRs being about the same price, these Altmans are just obsolete.

Sticky shutters, I'll give you that, but otherwise it sounds like the Altmans you're used to need some maintenance.

I've honestly never found any faults with the 65Q, other than needing a fourth clip on the accessory/gel frame holder. The Altman 1KAF fresnel is actually much worse IMO, aside from having that fourth clip and being able to handle a 1k lamp.

The Source Four Juniors are okay, but they can't be lamped to 750.

 

[gafftaper]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

Wow Derek! That video is so typical. I can't believe the insanity that surrounds these sorts of projects.

Back to the OP: Dobbins as the video says we can spend up to 40 Bazillion dollars. That's why you really need an expert to come in and help you evaluate what you have and what you need. Also remember that they way the space will be operated is critical. If the district isn't going to pay someone who really knows what they are doing to operate the space, there isn't a lot of need for equipment beyond what you have. If the district wants a facility they can really be proud of and use for years they need to hire a technical director yesterday to help guide them through the process and then operate the space when it is done. If you don't have someone who really knows what they are doing advocating for you through the entire process you are going to be left with a mediocre system with all kinds of kinks in it at best.

 

[Lotos]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

[Below comparisson based on the assumption that the OP's Strand Axial's are the 2212 series fixtures]

I was just under the impression that the OP was looking for the closest match to a Strand axial 6x12 for as little money as possible. Altman 6x12 seemed like a good choice to me.

We mix and match Altman 360Q 6x9's (70's and 80's Vintage) with Strand Axial 2209's. Trying to avoid using them completely interchangeably, mind you... But if we've got enough Strand for the 2 downstage sets of zones, the 2rd set will be Altman, without an issue... The optics are **** close, and at that vintage, the lenses all match up in terms of colour temp as well.
The Altmans aren't supposed to be fed FEL 1K lamps, while the Strands can take them (though will suffer cracked rear lenses if dirty, and heat builds up)... But if you lamp everything down to 750w, or 575w... The light output should be pretty even among them.

What you will find, is that the Altman 360Q series is a fair bit tighter on Beam Angle than the Strand fixtures.

I've honestly never found any faults with the 65Q, other than needing a fourth clip on the accessory/gel frame holder. The Altman 1KAF fresnel is actually much worse IMO, aside from having that fourth clip and being able to handle a 1k lamp.

AMEN!
Our TD did a heavy handed 'Get out of my ballpark' with our entire 1KAF inventory a few years back... They went to an employee at the time who runs a small event company... I've got one that missed the exodus sitting around here somewhere, but I'll be ****ed if I'll use it. Now we're just sitting happy with 65q's and Strand 3380's
The Altman 65Q's, again, are no match for the Strand 3380 6" Fresenelites if they're lamped to 1k, of course, but if everything is sharing a lamp at 750w or 575w, the output is close.
The 65Q's Beam is a little wider than the Strand's, but it's negligeable.

 

[museav]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

Derek, I couldn't decide whether to laugh or cry during that video as it is unfortunately not as far from reality as many may think. For many that wonder why their facilities are the way they are, just consider that this is often the kind of direction and input provided. Oh, and you can bet that with the $500,000 to $40,000,000 range that would be used as a placeholder, at some point someone will assume the $500,000 number and possibly even that they can proabably cut back from that a bit.

 

[mstaylor]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

Very true Brad, school systems are the worst, they generally put people in charge that have no idea but act like they do.

 

[Kelite]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

While perhaps not exactly on topic, this thread as well as this one remind me of this video, as mentioned on SML.

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At 8:04 of the video

Administrator - "By the way, if you don't mind me asking- what are you being paid for this?"

Consultant - "Obviously not enough."


And how.....

 

[gafftapegreenia]

Re: What lights should I buy and how much is it goping to set me back?

[Below comparisson based on the assumption that the OP's Strand Axial's are the 2212 series fixtures]



We mix and match Altman 360Q 6x9's (70's and 80's Vintage) with Strand Axial 2209's. Trying to avoid using them completely interchangeably, mind you... But if we've got enough Strand for the 2 downstage sets of zones, the 2rd set will be Altman, without an issue... The optics are **** close, and at that vintage, the lenses all match up in terms of colour temp as well.
The Altmans aren't supposed to be fed FEL 1K lamps, while the Strands can take them (though will suffer cracked rear lenses if dirty, and heat builds up)... But if you lamp everything down to 750w, or 575w... The light output should be pretty even among them.

What you will find, is that the Altman 360Q series is a fair bit tighter on Beam Angle than the Strand fixtures.



AMEN!
Our TD did a heavy handed 'Get out of my ballpark' with our entire 1KAF inventory a few years back... They went to an employee at the time who runs a small event company... I've got one that missed the exodus sitting around here somewhere, but I'll be ****ed if I'll use it. Now we're just sitting happy with 65q's and Strand 3380's
The Altman 65Q's, again, are no match for the Strand 3380 6" Fresenelites if they're lamped to 1k, of course, but if everything is sharing a lamp at 750w or 575w, the output is close.
The 65Q's Beam is a little wider than the Strand's, but it's negligeable.

I've been told the 6x16 and 6x22 can take the heat from an FEL, but myself, I've never done it. I know for a fact that 6x9's and 6.5x4.5's can't and will crack (oh those highschool days).

And yes, the 1KAF is a nightmare. The lenses crack, the sliders stick, they're bulky, and I've had constant problems with arcing lamp sockets. That whole generation of Altmans, (1KAF, 1KL, 4.5) need to just go away.

Long live the 65Q!