What lights to use for backlighting?

I need to backlight a group of people (ie. take out the front lighting on them so they are silhouetted dramatically, leaving a follow spot on the face of one character separate from the group).

I have a few lights down that haven't been assigned for other purposes in my show (Cabaret - this is the party scene at the end of Act 1 that turns into a Nazi love-in) and wondering what would be best for this effect. I have a couple of S4 Pars, a few Altman 6" Fresnels, a couple of 14" scoops, and a few Christmas floodlights.

The pit is on stage on risers off to one side, so I could hang something from one of those aluminum legs...it would be pretty diagonal to the group though (pretty much a 45 degree angle). If I hang from the back of my grid, I feel the effect wouldn't work, and then as far as other options go, the set will get in the way. I have one set piece I could maybe hang from that is central but the follow spot needs to be on that set piece and so that effect will be ruined by a blinding light.

I do not have a cyc and my back curtain is black.

High school "cafetorium" with the proscenium stage above the audience....

Do I sneak a couple lights just onto the floor and hope to hell they don't get kicked? Or can I rig up a mounting system on the floor?

I guess what I'm saying is I need to know the most effective height for this (thinking low pointing up) and maximum spread.

Thanks! You guys have taught me so much!
 
Black backdrop? Well, there is a bit of a limiter. Top back won't give you a solid effect. Bottom back would be best but you have props/scenery in the way. Well, it is Cabaret, which by it's nature is about a Cabaret style theater, so I am not sure that having visible fixtures is a problem. The trick is to make them look real old so they fit the setting and scenery. Old par cans on floor bases get my vote. Despite the true history, they look like something out of the 30's!
 
Black backdrop? Well, there is a bit of a limiter. Top back won't give you a solid effect. Bottom back would be best but you have props/scenery in the way. Well, it is Cabaret, which by it's nature is about a Cabaret style theater, so I am not sure that having visible fixtures is a problem. The trick is to make them look real old so they fit the setting and scenery. Old par cans on floor bases get my vote. Despite the true history, they look like something out of the 30's!

I *could* hang my chameleon scrim along my back black curtain, but I think it creates a feel change with the nightclub...should I just let go? lol
 
I *could* hang my chameleon scrim along my back black curtain, but I think it creates a feel change with the nightclub...should I just let go? lol
@Painterspoon I'll give you a different take to contemplate.
I'm liking your initial idea for back lighting the group so they're silhouetted somewhat eerily with zero light on their faces save the loan performer you're follow-spotting. I'm liking a high diagonal back light from over one of their shoulders. Which shoulder? Ideally I like up stage right but in reality from whichever side is easiest most convenient for you to hang and focus.
Which fixture? Ideally a 2 Kw Fresnel.
In reality whatever you've got that covers enough area to encompass back lighting the entire group thus this may be one or two fixtures immediately adjacent to each other to effectively increase your coverage but from as close as practical from the same point in space. Optimistically you can hang this pair of instruments so they're high enough to be above your patrons' sight lines so they can be operated VERY brightly without their lenses being seen and blinding / distracting your patrons. Of your existing available inventory I'd vote for two of a kind, either both or your Source Four pars or both of your Altman 6" Fresnels, whichever gives you your best coverage.
As to color I'll leave that up to you but consider this: If you have sufficient circuits, hang two instruments overhead from USR AND two more on a different circuit USL. Load them up with two cuts of your desired color from one side then try two cuts of a second color choice from the opposite side and see what catches your eye and satisfies your sensibilities best. Who knows, you may end up lighting from one side at one point then the opposite side at another. Maybe you'll use a combination. Once you've seen an option or two I'm sure your director and yourself will have multitudinous thoughts and opinions. You've already got the fixtures, right? You're not having to beg, borrow or rent them. They're just sitting there collecting dust anyways so why not live it up and expand your horizons?
I'd vote against your scoops. I'd also vote in favor of overhead out of the way of sets, performers and crew. I'd definitely vote against fixtures on floats or stands in front of the curtain line and stick with your black back drop. I'm liking your original silhouette idea best.
All the best and PLEASE let us know what you eventually went with sometime after opening night.
EDIT: The reason I suggest NOT using your scoops is I suspect you'll achieve a better / crisper look with more of a point source and use less gel too.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
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@Painterspoon I'll give you a different take to contemplate.
I'm liking your initial idea for back lighting the group so they're silhouetted somewhat eerily with zero light on their faces save the loan performer you're follow-spotting. I'm liking a high diagonal back light from over one of their shoulders. Which shoulder? Ideally I like up stage right but in reality from whichever side is easiest most convenient for you to hang and focus.
Which fixture? Ideally a 2 Kw Fresnel.
In reality whatever you've got that covers enough area to encompass back lighting the entire group thus this may be one or two fixtures immediately adjacent to each other to effectively increase your coverage but from as close as practical from the same point in space. Optimistically you can hang this pair of instruments so they're high enough to be above your patrons' sight lines so they can be operated VERY brightly without their lenses being seen and blinding / distracting your patrons. Of your existing available inventory I'd vote for two of a kind, either both or your Source Four pars or both of your Altman 6" Fresnels, whichever gives you your best coverage.
As to color I'll leave that up to you but consider this: If you have sufficient circuits, hang two instruments overhead from USR AND two more on a different circuit USL. Load them up with two cuts of your desired color from one side then try two cuts of a second color choice from the opposite side and see what catches your eye and satisfies your sensibilities best. Who knows, you may end up lighting from one side at one point then the opposite side at another. Maybe you'll use a combination. Once you've seen an option or two I'm sure your director and yourself will have multitudinous thoughts and opinions. You've already got the fixtures, right? You're not having to beg, borrow or rent them. They're just sitting there collecting dust anyways so why not live it up and expand your horizons?
I'd vote against your scoops. I'd also vote in favor of overhead out of the way of sets, performers and crew. I'd definitely vote against fixtures on floats or stands in front of the curtain line and stick with your black back drop. I'm liking your original silhouette idea best.
All the best and PLEASE let us know what you eventually went with sometime after opening night.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.


RON! You always have a cool angle...gonna give some things a try. Oh - and I'm the director, so I have ULTIMATE POWER MUAHAHAHHAAA
 
RON! You always have a cool angle...gonna give some things a try. Oh - and I'm the director, so I have ULTIMATE POWER MUAHAHAHHAAA
@Painterspoon Note I've edited my post while you were writing and explained why I wouldn't use your scoops.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
I am a big fan of low angle back light so if at all possible I would try one or more of the fresnels on deck as far upstage as possible. Try it out both upstage center or off to one side as Ron suggested. Another trick I have used before is to remove the Fresnel lens and if you have some blackwrap cover the reflector creating a point source. If you try this for safety at the very least put in a cut of gel, no color or a very light color or even better a gel frame loaded with metal window screen. This is both to protect the lamp and to prevent glass shards if the lamp breaks. Is it at all possible to build a very small platform with an open front, perhaps some Unistrut mounted on the bottom to bolt the fixtures to? It can be struck at the end of Act 1.
 
I'd vote for the high angle. You may end up with shadows on your audience area ceiling from floor mounted back light instruments. (Why, Oh, WHY hasn't anyone invented a light beam that goes so far & stops???)
@JonCarter Haven't you been following Ivan Beaver on ProSound and some of the speculation regarding a brand new item about to be announced and marketed by Tom Danley's Danley Sound Labs? ;<) I'd even settle for 'goes so far and bends predictably without a mirror' somewhat akin to undersea directional drilling. There's another technology only dreampt of a few decades ago.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
I need to backlight a group of people (ie. take out the front lighting on them so they are silhouetted dramatically, leaving a follow spot on the face of one character separate from the group).

I have a few lights down that haven't been assigned for other purposes in my show (Cabaret - this is the party scene at the end of Act 1 that turns into a Nazi love-in)

Let RELITIVE DARKNESS be your friend. Down lights or back may not give a silhouette your looking for.
When taking a picture of someone in front of a sunset, their face apears dark. Its really not, it's RELITIVE DARKNESS or a silhouette.
I would experiment with blinders on the floor but aim up so as not to directly blind.

There are many ways to hide lights, but always think!... safe distance from fabric, wood floors or anything flammable.
 
This might be a stupid question, but can I use an extension cord with a couple of inputs as a twofer, in case I run out of channels right where these lights need to go? I'm thinking of running this backlighting through an open doorway on a boom stand...might look cool. Will I end up just blowing a circuit breaker? If there's that risk, then I'll look at opening up a couple of channels for this.

Along the same line of thinking, I have four LEDs I need to run all night. They are low wattage and don't need dimming (just on/off). Can I daisy chain those together because they don't draw nearly the current the incandescents do?
 
More info would be helpful, I am confused (more than usual) by the "extension cord with a couple of inputs" also what kind of LEDs, fixtures with power in and out plugs, if so, what does the manual say.
 
This might be a stupid question, but can I use an extension cord with a couple of inputs as a twofer, in case I run out of channels right where these lights need to go? I'm thinking of running this backlighting through an open doorway on a boom stand...might look cool. Will I end up just blowing a circuit breaker? If there's that risk, then I'll look at opening up a couple of channels for this.

Along the same line of thinking, I have four LEDs I need to run all night. They are low wattage and don't need dimming (just on/off). Can I daisy chain those together because they don't draw nearly the current the incandescents do?
@Painterspoon Addressing your first query: "can I use an extension cord with a couple of inputs as a twofer?"
Are you saying / asking all of our lights are equipped with standard, residential, 3 contact grounded male connectors and is it O.K. to use a standard commercially assembled extension cable with one male end and two or three female receptacles as a twofer then the only answer I'm willing to post on the open internet is: "It depends." Which obviously leads us to 'It depends upon what?' and then we sail into the swirling black abyss of never ending queries:
A two-fer for what?
How many watts per fixture?
What gauge wire is the extension cord?
Is the extension cord fabricated with copper or aluminum conductors?
How long is the extension cord?
Will you be running the lights at 100%? (Compared to they'll NEVER be above 20%)
How long will you be running the lights? Three momentary lightning flashes or two and a half hours non-stop and five hours on rehearsal nights?
Followed by: What is the current / wattage rating of the circuit you're planning to use as your source?
What wattage is the dimmer you're planning on using?
Will you blow a circuit breaker? Maybe, what's the rating of the breaker in question and what else is that particular breaker also feeding?
Basically your production may end its run before I quit asking questions.
To look briefly at your second query: "I have four LEDs I need to run all night. They are low wattage and don't need dimming (just on/off). Can I daisy chain those together because they don't draw nearly the current the incandescents do?"
What kind of LED's? Tiny LED nightlights like I leave on in my child's bedroom at night, something from American DJ or something from ETC that cost two Toyota's and a used Volvo? Please pardon me while I 'take the 5th' and once again state: "It depends." You might want to take this to CB's PM (Personal Message) system rather than posting on the open forum although you may get lucky and receive replies from someone in a different part of the world operating at 230 volts.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
I almost wanna think that if the OP is asking this he shouldn't be in a position where he needs to ask it.
 
I almost wanna think that if the OP is asking this he shouldn't be in a position where he needs to ask it.

I am throwing out a general thought: None of us know everything and we learn by asking.

Many who replied to his questions may make the OP feel "sorry I asked".

One rigging instructor gave out his personal phone number saying "I'd rether you ask than I read about it in the papers"

So Ask and keep on learning.

Now to answer the OP. Electricity have rules to prevent injury or death. Find out your dimmer and breaker sizes. How many fixtures and amps will you draw. Are the guage wire in your cords corrects. You do the math.
It's like a stream that flows to a river then to an ocean.
 
I am throwing out a general thought: None of us know everything and we learn by asking.

Many who replied to his questions may make the OP feel "sorry I asked".

One rigging instructor gave out his personal phone number saying "I'd rether you ask than I read about it in the papers"

So Ask and keep on learning.

Now to answer the OP. Electricity have rules to prevent injury or death. Find out your dimmer and breaker sizes. How many fixtures and amps will you draw. Are the guage wire in your cords corrects. You do the math.
It's like a stream that flows to a river then to an ocean.

Thank you!

I will keep asking. I have learned more from this forum than from anything else. And I keep learning, because I keep asking. I'm a high school teacher trying to put on quality theatre at my school, and I WOULD PREFER TO DO IT SAFELY and ask questions than to do what most people do and go blindly forward and not recognize the inherent risks. I may not know a lot, but I'm also not an idiot. Thank you for all of your valuable responses. I can take them all and extract the helpful information.

Thanks, Melissa
 
Brava Melissa, it's great what you are doing. One issue with forums like this is that you post something and you understand what you are asking, but some of us are mis-interpreting what you have written, hence it may come across that we are picking on you. That isn't the case. Also a lot of times it's a form of vamping, various people throw out ideas, you get to decide what can work for you for the effect you want.
 
Brava Melissa, it's great what you are doing. One issue with forums like this is that you post something and you understand what you are asking, but some of us are mis-interpreting what you have written, hence it may come across that we are picking on you. That isn't the case. Also a lot of times it's a form of vamping, various people throw out ideas, you get to decide what can work for you for the effect you want.

Yeah, totally! There's more than one way to skin a cat - I'm learning how to express myself clearly as a lot of this stuff is still new lingo for me. I appreciate everyone's patience! Great place to be. Every time I'm at school and run into something I'm not sure about, I know that I can post a question on here and get a host of great answers and ideas that get me excited to move forward. Much appreciated, always.
 
Also, I am using Chauvet LED Par 64s and discovered through reading the online manual, that I can power link up to 8 units together (they are built for that), and I only have 4 of them, so thanks on that front.
@Painterspoon You've mentioned you have 60 dimmers, here are a few more queries which would be useful for you to answer and would permit many of us to more easily and quickly answer some of your questions:
- What is the rating of your dimmers, how many Watts per dimmer?
- Are all of your dimmers identical, the same make, model and wattage rating?
- How are your dimmers housed; possibly 1 rack containing all 60, 2 racks of 30 each, 2 x 24 + 1 x 12. Maybe 5 x 12 per pack, maybe even 15 x 4 per pack?
- The manufacturer of your dimmers is considerably less important to know but none the less useful. In Canada they could be Strand, Strand Century, Century Strand, ETC, or any of a myriad of other brands and models.
- Where are your dimmers located? Possibly overhead on your grid, or in an adjacent room SL, SR or US? Maybe even in your FOH booth?
- Do the load circuits from your dimmers pass through what is commonly referred to as a "Hard Patch", a cross patching facility which patches the actual output voltage and current of your dimmers?
- How does your control board connect to your dimmers? Possibilities: Hard wired, plug connected, via analogue utilizing one conductor per dimmer in a cable, via AMX, DMX or some other control protocol?
- What make and model of control board do you have?
- Where is your control board located; possibly in an FOH booth, on a table at the rear of your audience, maybe back stage somewhere?
- Do you only have one location for your control board or are you able to relocate to various locations while hanging and focusing Vs. rehearsing Vs. performing?
- Does your control board (or control console if you prefer) include a feature commonly referred to as a 'soft patch' which allows your various dimmers to be controlled by various control channels ranging from 60 channels controlling your 60 dimmers on a one to one basis all the way to one single control channel controlling all 60 dimmers simultaneously?
- Does your controller include manual sub-masters?
- Does your controller include "Groups"? (Groups are effectively sub-masters without physical sliders.)
P.S.: Thinking of your Chauvet PAR64 LED's; You'll likely also learn from their owner's manual that they may be operated (Without modification) from a variety of line voltages and frequencies thus identical models may be sold and easily successfully powered world wide. If you read your manual closely you can likely daisy-chain even more fixtures if you have a higher line voltage available: In Peterborough, Ontario, Canada you'll likely have voltages of 120, 208 and possibly 240 volts available. You MAY also have 347 and 600 volts available fairly conveniently but I'd strongly suggest you DO NOT entertain utilizing line voltages nominally higher than 208 and 240 volts.
This, to me at least, feels like enough keyboard bashing for the nonce; Back to you Missy Spoon @Painterspoon
Edited to insert a closing bracket I'd inadvertently omitted.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
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