What sound mixer should I choose

[sounddad]

I'm trying to buy a sound mixer to my daughter. I went to a dealer with some specs, and he advised me to buy a Midas Venice. When I got the mixer, my daughter told me it was too heavy to carry for her concerts.
So, I returned it, and looking for digital sound mixers, as they are lighter.

The main use for this is:

• Live mixing
• Support multichannel recording

Since I'm new to this, I would like some advice. Here are some of the specs I would like to have:

• 16 channels (minimum)
• Support for saving "scenes" (usually requires Motorized faders)
• Support for multichannel recording/playback to/from a PC or a digital recorder (minimum 16 channels)
• Good pre-amps and sound
• Sound effects are optional since I may get a external one (like Lexicon)
• Easy to use (intuitive, user-friendly interfaces)

I already found some possibilities, like Yamaha LS9, Roland RSS M300, Soundcraft Si Compact series, and more. But I'm not sure if all have the features (Soundcraft), and some require extra equipment (like Roland). I also found the Yamaha complex to use, although I've never used it.

I really appreciate your help.

 

[museav]

I moved this to the Sound forum as that is a much more appropriate place for it.

Two basic questions to start. First, do you have a budget in mind? Second, how quickly do you need to purchase something? You happened to have posted right as NAMM is occurring and the last couple of days have seen a number of new mixer products introduced that might fit your needs and at a lower cost, but many of those will not be available for at least a few months. But if you can wait then new products such as the Soundcraft Si Expression series, Roland M200i and Behringer X32 Compact might be options to consider.

On some details, a Midas Venice 160 weighs 36.2 lbs. while a Soundraft Si Compact 16 weighs 26 lbs. and an LS9-16 weighs 26.5 lbs. So a digital mixer may weigh less but by the time you add a road case, etc. it is not like you are looking at the difference between a 100lbs. mixer and a 20lbs. mixer. If 16 inputs is all that is needed and weight is really that much of a factor then maybe something like Mackie DL1608 | 16-Channel Digital Live Sound Mixer or Behringer: DIGITAL iPAD/TABLET MIXER iX16 would be appropriate.

On the other hand, is 16 inputs sufficient? You did not note the type of bands or venues that may be associated but many situations can use up inputs quickly and most people do not want to spend money on something that will limit them right from the start or that they might quickly outgrow. And if you add external effects how do you plan to do so and might that affect the input and/or output requirements?

How many and what type of aux sends are required? Do you want subgroups or mute groups or DCA capability? What about wireless control or offline configuration software?

Is this for more hobby or personal use or is the intent to provide services and/or equipment to others? There can sometimes be a difference between what works best for personal use and what works best or can be easily sold to others.

What is you daughter's experience and what might she consider "easy to use"?

 

[sounddad]

Thanks for your reply.
My price range could go up to 10k.

The suggestions you are making are in the lower end mixers.

I was looking for a higher quality mixers

 

[Aman121]

Thanks for your reply.
My price range could go up to 10k.

The suggestions you are making are in the lower end mixers.

I was looking for a higher quality mixers

What exactly is your daughters profession, and what exactly will this be used for? If you could answer that and some of Brad's questions we could better answer your question. As for your pricing comment, the best mixer for your use might just happen to fall in a lower price point. You can say that you want to spend $10,000 on a banana, but the fact of the matter is that even the best tasting banana ever simply doesn't cost $10,000.

 

[sounddad]

What You are saying is not true. I know some mixers that cost way above 10k. Midas pro2 is just one example. An Allen & Heath GLD can cost over 15k.

 

[Aman121]

What You are saying is not true. I know some mixers that cost way above 10k. Midas pro2 is just one example. An Allen & Heath GLD can cost over 15k.

That's not the point, of course there are consoles above 10k. The point is that the best console for your situation migh not end up costing as much as you think.

 

[sounddad]

Regarding the use for the mixer, it is for other family members too. If you really want to know here are some info. My wife is a professional singer and performs with medieval grous. Her concerts are not amplified but I would like to record her concerts using 16 channels, as her groups don't have more than 16 members. I have another daughter that plays viola da gamba, and plays in chamber groups, also not amplified performances. The daughter I told you about previously has a Folk music group that requires amplified sound and each musician uses several mics.
The reason I want more expensive mixers is I would like to have excellent quality sound and flexibility for all situations.

Finally, I would like to get help in the selection of the right gear.

 

[drummerboi316]

What You are saying is not true. I know some mixers that cost way above 10k. Midas pro2 is just one example. An Allen & Heath GLD can cost over 15k.

And you could get a Venue Profile system for 60k+, but that's not the point. What he's saying is if you give us a better understanding of the application that the console will be used for, we can better suggest the most appropriate product. In this industry expensive does not necessarially mean better. If you are looking for specific requirements you may be suprised to find those in a cheaper console, one that isn't necessarially "high end". What I mean by that is, when you tell us more about this venture, we might be able to suggest a Mackie or Behringer product that would certainally fit your criteria and be an amazing console for you, saving you lots of money from going out and buying a less flexible Midas or Soundcraft consloe just because it is "better".

/My 2 cents

 

[Aman121]

And you could get a Venue Profile system for 60k+, but that's not the point. What he's saying is if you give us a better understanding of the application that the console will be used for, we can better suggest the most appropriate product. In this industry expensive does not necessarially mean better. If you are looking for specific requirements you may be suprised to find those in a cheaper console, one that isn't necessarially "high end". What I mean by that is, when you tell us more about this venture, we might be able to suggest a Mackie or Behringer product that would certainally fit your criteria and be an amazing console for you, saving you lots of money from going out and buying a less flexible Midas or Soundcraft consloe just because it is "better".

/My 2 cents

Exactly. Plus, you mentioned wanting to make good recordings. The cost of goo microphones will add up quick, so unless you already have good mics, it would make more sense to dump cash into mics than a console, as they will have a much bigger effect on the final product.

 

[sounddad]

Thanks for your information. I know what you are saying, and I have good mics and I'm going to buy more. But that is a different topic. Right now I' m selecting a mixer, not mics.

 

[avkid]

If you only need 16 preamps and can wait a bit to purchase I would seriously consider the Behringer X32 Producer.
Behringer: DIGITAL MIXER X32 PRODUCER

 

[sounddad]

Regarding your suggestions, the Mackie does not support 16 track recordings. I could not find if any of your suggestions support saving "scenes". They may support, but I couldn't find this in the overview of the product info. Another thing I don't like about the Mackie is that it requires an iPad, and this type of dependency is a no for me.

 

[sounddad]

If you only need 16 preamps and can wait a bit to purchase I would seriously consider the Behringer X32 Producer.
Behringer: DIGITAL MIXER X32 PRODUCER

Now here is something I'll have to look into. It looks like a good suggestion.
It would be nice if I have other choices and if possible, comparisons between them.

Thanks for this one

 

[aldenf]

Hi sounddad.

You ask this question at a really interesting time in console (mixer) technology...

I'm assuming you purchased a Venice Hybrid model (VeniceU or VeniceF). If you could share exactly which model, that would help us greatly in making suggestions that meet your requirements. For example: A VeniceF 32 weighs 82 lbs. While a MidasU 32 is 30 lbs. lighter at 52 lbs. Remember that a road case will add approximately 50 lbs to the final carry weight.

At your upper price range, is a Midas Pro1 at 47 lbs. and just under $10k. To record with it, you'll have to spend an additional $900 for a PCIe Lynx AES50 interface for DESKTOP computer (PC, MacPro or MacMini with a $1400 interface). My theater has a Midas Pro2 ($22k) and I can't say enough good things about it. The Pro1 shares the same basic technology.

Midas Consoles | PRO1


At around $3k, 45 lbs, and perhaps the best bang for your buck, is the Behringer X32. Behringer just announced the X32 Compact. But it has not actually been released yet. And, although smaller than the X32, I have yet to see actual size and weight specs. Even the web brochure excludes this info. I have used the X32. It is an incredible mixer for the money. It probably has everything your daughter will need built-in. The word on durability is still out. I know several sound contractors that have been running X32s for over 6 months now, trying to beat them into the ground. I have yet to hear of one failing yet. I am replacing my old Venice 320 with an X32.

BEHRINGER: Mixers


What I think is most important is the functionality of the console:

-How many Aux Sends/Busses/Outs does your daughter need? How many monitor mixes, etc.
-What is the primary purpose of the console? Live reinforcement, recording, playback, etc? A compromise on size might be fine for a recording console. But for live reinforcement, the extra surface space and faders can be priceless. Example - A Midas Pro2 is a very nice FOH console for small to medium size venues/acts. The Pro2c (compact version) makes mixing a rock band or musical theater show much more difficult as it has 8 fewer faders for control. The Pro2c is a great monitor mixer though.
-Do you need multi-track out of the computer or just in, like the Venice Hybrids? The X32's Firewire interface allows a simultaneous 32 channels in each direction (32x32).
-How many inputs do you need at the console? Example: The X32 has 32 mono mic inputs on the console. The X32 Compact only has 16. You'll have to spend another $1k on a S16 digital stage box to increase it to 32. And your daughter will have to carry an additional piece of equipment mounted in a rack case to her gigs.
-The ability to record scenes is awesome. This pretty much limits you to a full digital console. Hybrids do not record scenes. This leaves practically all sub-$3000 consoles out of the running.

Besides Midas and Behringer; PreSonus, Soundcraft, Allen & Heath and Yamaha make affordable, reasonable sounding digital mixers. Ask 10 different designers/engineers which sounds best and you'll get 7 different answers...

-The Soundcraft Si Compact series you mention are great sounding consoles. Personally, I hate the surface and would not want to mix anything live on it, especially on the fly. it also doesn't have built-in recording abilities. An additional MADI interface would be required. There are others here better able to explain what is needed.
-The Yamaha LS9 series... I don't want to start an argument here. I don't like the sound of Yamahas. I think their mic pres are terrible. Others love them. I also don't like the LS9 interface. If you're considering an LS9-32, please look at the Pro1 as well.
-As for the Rolands... Read the forums here and elsewhere. Most of us would not recommend Roland for professional level gear. Of course, prior to the X32, none of us would have recommended Behringer either.
-The PreSonus StudioLive 24.4.2 at 30 lbs and $3k is another option. Also a great bang-for-your-buck console. I would personally recommend it over the three above series. At 50 lbs and $4k, the 32.4.2AI is also a good choice but probably too heavy for your daughter. PreSonus | Products - Mixers
-Allen & Heath have the GLD-80 at 35 lbs and $9k. It only has 4 mic inputs on-board. So the GLD-AR2412 stagebox is required for an additional $2200. It sounds great. Beyond a stereo interface, optional recording interfaces are required. GLD-80 | ALLEN & HEATH // WORLD CLASS MIXING


In my humble opinion, you have the Behringer X32 or PreSonus 24.4.2, both at around $3k. The X32 probably gets the nod here as a more complete, versatile solution.
I do not see things getting significantly better until you reach the Midas Pro1 or A&H GLD-80. With recording solutions, the Midas falls around $10-11k while the A&H falls at $12-13k.

There are distinct advantages at $10k+ over $3k. Will a far majority of people be able to tell the difference in sound during live situations? Unless your daughter is using $60k worth of speakers, amps and processors, probably not. Differences in recording? The Behringer and PreSonus will only record at 48KHz sample rates. The Midas and A&H network and record at 96KHz. If your daughter is using SM58/SM57 microphones, little difference will be heard. What ten grand gets you is: better microphone pre-amps, better built-in effects, 96 KHz sample rate.

Personally, I'd go with the Behringer and spend the remaining $7000 on better speakers and mics (the MOST important parts of a sound system).

Your daughter will have to decide if the size/weight advantages of a compact console outweigh the increased functionality of it's slightly larger brethren. 50 lbs is not that heavy and allows for some really good choices and fewer compromises.

Hope this helps.

~Alden

Alden Fulcomer
Associate Production Manager
Audio Supervisor
Bucks County Playhouse

 

[sounddad]

Thanks for your feedback.
It is good to have this type of reply.

But let's go to the point.

I'm assuming you purchased a Venice Hybrid model (VeniceU or VeniceF). If you could share exactly which model, that would help us greatly in making suggestions that meet your requirements. For example: A VeniceF 32 weighs 82 lbs. While a MidasU 32 is 30 lbs. lighter at 52 lbs. Remember that a road case will add approximately 50 lbs to the final carry weight.

I was recommended to go with the Midas Venice F24. I still have it with me, but since I have a 30 day money guaranty. I'm going to return it.
I weighs 30.5kg / 67.2lbs.

So we decided we wanted a lighter mixer that could weigh up to 20Kg / 44 lbs, but if if weighs less, it would be even better.

Regarding recording I though on using Allen & Heath ICE-16 that has a firewire interface. I know there are others like multitrack Roladn R-1000, but it is too expensive (5000 USD) and can record up to 48 tracks which I don't need.

At around $3k, 45 lbs, and perhaps the best bang for your buck, is the Behringer X32. Behringer just announced the X32 Compact

The Behringer choice looks really a good choice, and I'll have a look at it.

-How many Aux Sends/Busses/Outs does your daughter need? How many monitor mixes, etc.

Regarding the output lines, is also something important, as you mention. 2 main output, around 6 AUX outputs, 4 subgroup output lines, It would be nice to have . I don't really need all, but if it could have 8, would be great. (4 for monitoring, 4 for send and receive (I have a Lexicom MX400), 2 for recording in a stereo device (CD)).

Regarding buses, there is no special requirements, but most of the mixer come with a few that are more than enough for what I will ever need. But since you requested, let's set for a minimum of 6 buses.

-What is the primary purpose of the console? Live reinforcement, recording, playback, etc? A compromise on size might be fine for a recording console. But for live reinforcement, the extra surface space and faders can be priceless.

As for the mixer, it has 2 main purposes: Live mixing, and mastering the recorded concerts or recording sessions and playing them back.
There is something that I may need which I assume is supported in any configuration. I may want to use this like a studio where I can record 1 track at a time and mixing/editing later. So the players will need to playback tracks and record, in a different track another musician, synchronously.
So, regarding your question if I need also playback, the answer is obviously yes.

-Do you need multi-track out of the computer or just in, like the Venice Hybrids? The X32's Firewire interface allows a simultaneous 32 channels in each direction (32x32).

I think I already answered this one, and it is yes. 16 channels for recording and playback.

-How many inputs do you need at the console? Example: The X32 has 32 mono mic inputs on the console. The X32 Compact only has 16. You'll have to spend another $1k on a S16 digital stage box to increase it to 32. And your daughter will have to carry an additional piece of equipment mounted in a rack case to her gigs.

From the console I would need 16 input lines, that support independent phantom power per line.

-The Soundcraft Si Compact series you mention are great sounding consoles. Personally, I hate the surface and would not want to mix anything live on it, especially on the fly. it also doesn't have built-in recording abilities. An additional MADI interface would be required. There are others here better able to explain what is needed.
-The Yamaha LS9 series... I don't want to start an argument here. I don't like the sound of Yamahas. I think their mic pres are terrible. Others love them. I also don't like the LS9 interface. If you're considering an LS9-32, please look at the Pro1 as well.
-As for the Rolands... Read the forums here and elsewhere. Most of us would not recommend Roland for professional level gear. Of course, prior to the X32, none of us would have recommended Behringer either.
-The PreSonus StudioLive 24.4.2 at 30 lbs and $3k is another option. Also a great bang-for-your-buck console. I would personally recommend it over the three above series. At 50 lbs and $4k, the 32.4.2AI is also a good choice but probably too heavy for your daughter. PreSonus | Products - Mixers
-Allen & Heath have the GLD-80 at 35 lbs and $9k. It only has 4 mic inputs on-board. So the GLD-AR2412 stagebox is required for an additional $2200. It sounds great. Beyond a stereo interface, optional recording interfaces are required. GLD-80 | ALLEN & HEATH // WORLD CLASS MIXING

So far I found the following to be interesting:
- The Soundcraft Si Compact series. The disadvantages are: An additional MADI interface would be required (and more material, as the multitrack recorder does not support MADI). Don't think scenes are supported.
-The Yamaha LS9 series. Looks too me the user interface is complicated. It looks like a standard, but I don't seem to fancy it.
-As for the Rolands, I looked to me a good option, but does not have enough lines on the console, and requires extra equipment. And if you say that most pros don't like it, that is a good sign to have it removed from my list.
-The PreSonus StudioLive, Looked to me an excellent option, but unfortunately does not have motorized faders, so, I cannot completely save scenes.
-Allen & Heath GLD-80, also requires additional gear that I would like not having. Same problem as Roland.
-Tascam DM3200 you didn't mention on your list, but could also be another option.

Unless your daughter is using $60k worth of speakers, amps and processors, probably not.

Regarding the speakers we are mentioning, they cost me around 2000 USD, so they are not that expensive.

If your daughter is using SM58/SM57 microphones, little difference will be heard. What ten grand gets you is: better microphone pre-amps, better built-in effects, 96 KHz sample rate.

Regarding the mics, they are good. Some cost 300 USD some 2000 USD. For example, for the Viola da Gamba I have 2 mics, from AKG that were advised by AKG engineers. For live voice I have Sure Beta 87A. I have 2 senheiser MD441, and Neumann SKM 140, and more.

Regarding the sample rate, I have a Lexicon MX400, that has effects processor, and uses 44KHz sample rate.
There are equipments that use 192 kHz sample rate.

Thanks again for your feedback.
I just wish you can comment further so that I can use your opinion for my decision.

 

[Footer]

Any console that is in the upper reaches of your price range is going to weigh too much. I have an X32 in the gator case and me and another one of my guys can easily move it around without thinking about it. Hell, I have flipped and uncased it by myself without issue.

Here is the thing... none of these options are going to sound as good as the Venice. The Pro1 should, but after you put that thing in a flight case it is going to get you back up in the 100# territory. The sound of the X32 is decent, but it is no venice or heritage. We use it as a monitor desk and for that it is fine. I try to avoid using it FOH unless I have to. It sounds better in my opinion than most of the Yamaha stuff out there, but it is just not as warm as the analog stuff we have (Allen and Heath GL2800 and Heritage 1k). Granted, it sounds great, but don't expect it to sound like a Heritage or even a venice. I have never heard the A to D's in the Venice so I can not comment there.

If you want "best" sound quality in a small format digital desk, your choices are the Digico SD11 or a Pro1. Both are VERY good consoles. I have heard both the Pro 2 and Pro 6 and they are excellent, I'm sure the Pro 1 is as well. In my view, Digico has the best sounding digital desks out there without question... but even the SD11 will set you back at least 15k.

So, you either need to raise your price range to the true pro level gear or buy and X32. It sounds better than anything else in the class. Personally, I would keep the Venice and invest in a rolling pelican and a gym membership. You will not beat the sound quality of the venice for the price... period.

 

[justind]

I just purchased a soundcraft si compact and it is a very nice console. if you have up to 10k i would definitely consider going with something like this or perhaps a yamaha LS9. I realize you may have some external processors, but getting something that has all of those capabilities onboard is really nice. like others have said I'm not sure you are going to cut down on weight too much with any of these higher end options, but you can reduce the number of individual components that are needed for a system. There is also an iPad interface which I have yet to use, but I imagine there would be some value for you there as well.

oh and behringer has always been a dirty word around the sound guys I know. I guess there have been some good reviews of the x32, but I've heard too many stories about behringers working fine one day and the next they are a $3000 paperweight. YMMV.

 

[Footer]

oh and behringer has always been a dirty word around the sound guys I know. I guess there have been some good reviews of the x32, but I've heard too many stories about behringers working fine one day and the next they are a $3000 paperweight. YMMV.

Used to be true... not anymore. I have A/B the X32 against the LS9 and sound quality wise the X32 blows the LS9 out of the water. Going anything Yamaha would be a step back.

 

[AlexDonkle]

Just to add my 2 cents.

If you want to master songs laters, then one requirement of any mixer is that it should have the ability to work as a "control surface" for whatever program you're mixing in (Pro Tools is a standard for pros, but software like Audacity, Digital Performer, Adobe Audition, Garage Band, etc. all have their advantages and many are much cheaper or free which is likely fine unless you're bringing the files into a professional studio to finalize any mixes). Many sound boards are designed around either live sound, or a control surface for studios, but there are a few that do both well. Makes sure that the mixer has drivers already available for control surface features, and not just "coming soon" (my school got into trouble with that, as Yamaha claimed they were working on control surface plug-in for control surfaces for their DM2000, but 8 years later it's still not released).
Motorized faders shouldn't be a "suggestion" for a control surface either like they are in live sound boards, I would require them. Here's some examples of control surfaces
Mixing Control Surfaces | Sweetwater.com

 

[aldenf]

Personally, I would keep the Venice and invest in a rolling pelican and a gym membership. You will not beat the sound quality of the venice for the price... period.

Kyle makes a great point. I have used my Venice 320 HARD. It still looks, works and sounds great. The Venice series has always been the best sounding compact desk. I've recorded over two dozen commercial CDs with the Venice. I can record directly into RME interfaces today that I would match against $60k digital consoles... You can move to the VeniceU series. It's simply a slightly more compact version of the F series. In fact the U series looks more like the original Venice. Midas specs the VeniceU 16 @ 35 lbs and the 24 @ 44 lbs. It might be your best sounding choice under $10k. But it is not a digital console. It is a "hybrid". In Midas' case, you are limited to a 16 channel configuration (8 out x 8 in). The AD/DA converters are nice. The Venice series will also not allow you to record scenes, VCAs, Mute Groups, etc. It's "digital" capabilities are simply limited... Midas Consoles | VeniceU

The X32 seems to be the best compromise under $10k. It's small, light, sounds good, is a true digital console (with almost all things that "digital" means) and probably strikes the best balance between reinforcement/recording if you really want the "digital" features. If you wait for the X32 Compact or Producer editions, things will lighten up further.

In my previous post, I tried steering you toward the Pro1. The only compromises you would be making with it is price ($10-11k/complete) and weight (47 lbs.). It would pull both live and recording with aplomb and sound GREAT doing it. It would also be as much of a learning curve as the X32. The VeniceU has little to no learning curve.

Just My 2 cents.

~Alden