Where to place orchestra?

JessHolt

Member
Hello,
I apologize if this question has been asked/answered before.

I'm working on coming up with a sound plan for Fiddler on the Roof and the theatre doesn't have a pit. Part of the set design features a large cutout of hills and houses that is placed several feet in front of the cyc. I'm considering placing the orchestra behind this cut out. I've never done anything like this before so I'm wondering if any of you can offer your advice or insights on this? How will this affect the sound quailty and volume?

Thanks so much for any help!
 
Is the orchestra going to be mic'ed up or not enhanced/reinforced at all? Generally if the orchestra is behind something it will be quieter, although if it's not solid that will help.
 
I've been involved in many community theatre shows (also with no pit) where the orchestra was behind the stage. This particular space had these huge sliding fire doors that led from behind the cyc directly in to the shop, and many times they'd just put the orchestra back there, either in front of the doors or in the shop with the doors open (...yeah, dirty. I don't know how they could stand it).

If the only separation is a cyc or scrim, that's great but I have heard decent results with even a full set in the way. If you can, at least hang a few overhead mics.
 
I'm running a show (closing this weekend actually) where the orchestra is behind the set. It's working out really well. I've done it in the past with overheads but the sound quality was lacking. This time we micd each book and it sounds fantastic. Keys 1 through 3 are direct inputs. Guitar and Bass are micd at the amp. Reeds 1 though 3, trumpets and trombone are each micd individually. Drums has a few mics all over sitting behind an acrylic shield.

Regardless of how you decide to mic them, the most important thing about putting the band in a location other than the pit is monitors. Making sure the conductor can hear the band as well as the actors on stage is extremely important. In addition to audio monitors, I always run 2 video monitors when I have the band backstage. One camera facing the stage feeding a monitor that the conductor can see, and one camera facing the conductor that the actors can see.

Here's a few pics of the set up for my current show:
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I would expect some cc TV so singers can see conductor would be required, with some attention to lighting the conductor and his clothes. It is becoming more frequent that the orchestra is not in the same room or even same building, I think in one case on B'way several blocks away, and all by sound systems, with tow way video of course.
 
We're currently doing a production of Godspell. The orchestra is beside the set on stage right. As they are part of the action, no problem - but we do have microphones and monitors so the band can hear the actors.

Last year we did Little Shop of Horrors - the orchestra was behind the set walls on stage left. The pianist/orchestra leader couldn't really see the actors - so again, we had to put microphones on the set so she could hear the actors.
 
As someone who has conducted and played in pit orchestras and miked pit orchestras before, I've got to say that line of sight with both pit and stage is ideal. The points raised about video monitors are absolutely necessary if you put them in a place where the conductor won't be able to see the orchestra and the actors/singers at the same time. One thing I've noticed too is that if you have weak singers they will not do well without someone cueing them in, especially if there are a lot of orchestra/stage interaction. It's obviously done frequently, our local playhouse here recently permanently covered their pit and built a sound-proof rehearsal hall that is equipped to mike all the instruments and be mixed into the house mains. It works well, but will take practice.

From a standpoint of acoustics, the further upstage the group is moved, the more sound is going to go up instead of out. Fiddler is a pretty big orchestra, your high stuff (flutes, clarinets, high strings, etc.) are going to cut through, but muffled as has been said. The lower instruments will have a harder time cutting the mix and any like stuff like vamping under dialog may have balance issues. Amp placement will be important for keyboards, or anything that's not DI-ed. I would work with your music director on finding what needs to be built up before you throw mics at the problem. Run it with just pit and see what gets lost. Try moving them around back there and see what setup works best naturally without amplification. If they are behind a flat wall, a lot of that sound is going up. Do you have a fly tower? Are these high schoolers or amatuers or pros? The biggest trick here will be trial and error. If your conductor is happy, your pit will most likely be happy too.

If you put them close to the upstage wall you can also get a sort of proximity effect reflection that can sometimes help (or hurt). The biggest thing is trial and error. I'm a big fan of using as much natural sound as possible and only adding reinforcement when needed. If you get into a battle of loud, you're going to run into a feedback nightmare.
 
Backstage, in the wings, behind the set, or do it like they do at Cirque: Ka... put the orchestra in the basement! It doesn't matter where you put them, you just need Video and audio monitors and microphones. I like having the band in a location other than the pit because it gives me control of their volume.
 
It's been done, but it's fairly difficult depending on who and what you're working with. Any video monitors / cameras will generally need to be pro-quality with GenLock built-in (i.e. same cameras you'd use for IMAG) to keep everything in sync. If the orchestra is on-stage to some degree, whoever's mixing sound will need to be careful about what sound bleeds through the set (which they can't control) vs. the sounds coming through the sound system to keep it all in balance. If you can, try to have 2 sound mixers with separate boards (one to sub-mix the band, one to mix the vocals / final mix)
 
If you can, try to have 2 sound mixers with separate boards (one to sub-mix the band, one to mix the vocals / final mix)

In a true isolation situation that's the only way I've seen it done. That way your sound op sitting at FOH is just controlling a sub or DCA called "band" and mixing it with vocals.

The main issues I see are timing, stage volume and balance with putting them on stage. Good musicians will make that easier.

Adonkle hits on a good point, you've gotta have the gear and the infrastructure to make a remote orchestra work.
 
As a mixer/sound designer, I hate having the band on-stage unless the singers can actually sing. I played both mixer and sound designer for Aida this spring, and the band was just behind the wall making up the US edge of the set, and it was a nightmare for the weaker singers. That being said, I mixed Wild Party where the band was built on top of the set and it worked out really well. It all depends. Ideally, I'd rather the band in a separate room than on-stage.

Now, that being said, as long as the band fits in the physical space, go for it. I would reiterate the post about video. I've had actors who were fine not seeing the conductor as long as their foldback was good, but all conductors I've worked with insist on seeing (and hearing) the actors. If budget allows, go for two way video, and don't forget Clear-Com.

I would also be prepared to deal with bleed from the band into the actors' mics and any foot/hanging mics. Luan is a very poor soundproofing material. If you can, try and get some drum shields or some other kind of acoustic treatment for drums/percussion. I don't see the need to have separate consoles and mixers for the band and singers. As long as yours is large enough, dump them all to a VCA or group and be done with it.

One last point, if you're planning on throwing color on the cyc, beware that the musos' stand lights will be on (unless the LD runs them through the dimming system).
 
I'd like to add one more option I did not see brought forward. The first musical I ever worked on was a community theatre production of fiddler on the roof, we set up a pit house right. Had the orchestra do a little extra work to balance and miced the stage to reinforce vocals. Worked surprisingly well.
Very minimal reinforcement of a few things in the pit.
We lost seats sure but the room was big enough to still have I think 200+ seats.

For the most part I'd second what the others have said. But if this would work for you then great!


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