Which one to choose?

[tweetersaway]

If you can, rent them. Try to get the director to lean that way. I'd rather spend 150 renting good quality mics for the run of a show then low quality gear for about the same price.

If the director is so bent on buying them, then try to get them to consider wired mics. Seeing as how you're looking at a handheld mic, you have a better shot at using wired than if you needed a lav.

If the director won't budge for either of those options, then I guess your best bet is what jkowtko said. Try both. I have used a very inexpensive nady microphone for a non-vital application, and it worked fine at about 100-150ft line of sight. Not a terrible buy for 40 bucks. Not that I go around telling people that I use Nady...

 

[waynehoskins]

And of course if you do end up buying something, try to get a frequency-agile set that will operate below 700 megs, what with that spectrum pretty sure going away (well, reallocated to services other than television which will have fewer definite White Holes). I may well be preaching to the choir on that one, not sure.

A synthesized FM transmitter and receiver operating in UHF spectrum are a mighty fragile circuit. Particularly the receiver end: a cheap receiver will not have as robust a front end, so you are far more prone to get adjacent-channel interference or just plain front-end overload from the other transmitters operating (or the television transmitter that's three megs away). You're more prone to get receiver desense issues, where with close physical coupling of receivers the local oscillators in one will overload the front end of a physically adjacent receiver, making it less sensitive. The transmitters may be susceptible to cross-modulation or intermodulation, where in one case the signal from one transmitter will affect another physically-close in-band transmitter (why sometimes they go funny when two miked actors stand pack-to-pack), and in the other case two in-band signals beat together in a receiver.

Behringer vs. Sennheiser wireless isn't the same as Behringer vs. A&H consoles, since the console is a relatively trivial circuit. A radio link is fragile, man.

That said, if it's in a rural area, the cheap wireless might be worth a shot, since the spectrum is probably pretty empty. I wouldn't try it myself in an urban area or with a setup of more than a very few wireless sets. At the church (urban area) there is RF trash all the way from 620 up to 650 megs. I had occasional co-channel dropout issues with one of my IEM links for the first week or so until I figured that out; I moved the link frequency up above 650 (650.500, I think) and that cleared right up. One of my wireless mic links is in-band too, so I put it at 651.500, never any more troubles. I'd never seen 30 megs of solid S-9+ hash before.

 

[mbenonis]

Very well put, Wayne!

73's

 

[museav]

According to the manufacturer's literature, the Behringer UL2000M operates at 798-806MHz and the Citronic MP16UHF at 863-865MHz. So it is very location dependent. In the US a 798-806MHz device falls into the upper end of the '700MHz' band and cannot even be sold starting 02/19/2009 while a wireless system at 863-865Mhz is actually in a band reserved for public safety use. However, in the UK I believe 863-865MHz is a band reserved for wireless audio while 798-806MHz is part of the Channel 62 bandwidth.

Ironically, a question about experiences with the Behringer UL2000M also just came up on another audio forum and quite interestingly, the response there has been about the same as here; lots of comments on Behringer and wireless mics in general but no responses from anybody who has actually used that particular model.

 

[lieperjp]

Ironically, a question about experiences with the Behringer UL2000M also just came up on another audio forum and quite interestingly, the response there has been about the same as here; lots of comments on Behringer and wireless mics in general but no responses from anybody who has actually used that particular model.

*cough, cough*

I don't know about that Behringer. We bought two at my high school, brand new out of box didn't work. It works well if, and only if, the mic stays in one location without moving. If a person is holding it and moving around, it cuts out for a second or two every 5-10 seconds. We ended up returning them and buying some Audio-Technica mics.

More info:

We used them as introductory mics at our concerts and announcement mics for assemblies in our gymnasium. The microphone was within 100 feet of the receiver at all times, no walls. As I stated before, if the speaker could find a "sweet spot" the microphone would work very well, but any movement could cost the signal. We tried it also in our cafeteria, where the microphone was within 50 feet of the receiver at all times, still had the problems. Also, I tried taking it to my church, a gymnasium. Still didn't work. We replaced the batteries several times to no avail. We tried moving the receiver around to no avail. We tried Behringer Customer Support, it didn't work. (I don't know how helpful they were on the phone: My teacher was the one who called.) We had it on a mic stand, and it only cut out once in the 20 minutes it was on. When someone was holding it in their hands, it would cut out every 5-10 seconds as stated before.

 

[museav]

Sorry, I took "I don't know about that Behringer." to literally mean you did not know about that Behringer model and thus your comments related to the Citronic. My bad!

We tried Behringer Customer Support, it didn't work. (I don't know how helpful they were on the phone: My teacher was the one who called.)

That is one area where there were some responses on the other forum and based on those comments, I'm more surprised that you were able to talk to someone at Behringer Customer Service than that it didn't help.

The general feeling expressed by that group seemed to be that one way the manufacturers of lower cost products get those prices is through reduced support, service, etc. Many of their products are so inexpensive as to be viewed more as throw aways than something you would invest much in servicing and maintaining.

The other view expressed by several people was that in general they did not have a problem with what Behringer offered for the price but would not be comfortable with the types of compromises typically made to get those prices when it came to wireless mics. I think that same concept applies to any low cost wireless microphone, it may be all you can afford, just be aware of the potential limitations and compromises related to that cost.

 

[jkowtko]

Just remember, $150 for a rental gets you nowhere in terms of capital equipment purchases -- unless the rental company will credit the $$ towards purchase of the unit.

My theater learned that lesson. Before I showed up two years ago they paid rental fees for everything, and after several years still had virtually no equipment. Now they have several thousand dollars worth of medium-quality equipment including a 32-channel Soundcraft board, 18-20 channels of mics that work, 14-18 channels of compression that works, 6 channels of EQ, reverb, dual CD, two sound effects PCs with M-Audio Delta interfaces, and 7+ Mackie SRM speakers. With no change in budget -- just a change in expense strategy.

If the cheap wireless happens to work there (the cheap wireless has to work somewhere -- otherwise it wouldn't continue to sell as a product), then they now own a low-cost option for working wireless mics. If they never try using it they will never know.

 

[lieperjp]

Sorry, I took "I don't know about that Behringer." to literally mean you did not know about that Behringer model and thus your comments related to the Citronic. My bad!


That is one area where there were some responses on the other forum and based on those comments, I'm more surprised that you were able to talk to someone at Behringer Customer Service than that it didn't help.

The general feeling expressed by that group seemed to be that one way the manufacturers of lower cost products get those prices is through reduced support, service, etc. Many of their products are so inexpensive as to be viewed more as throw aways than something you would invest much in servicing and maintaining.

The other view expressed by several people was that in general they did not have a problem with what Behringer offered for the price but would not be comfortable with the types of compromises typically made to get those prices when it came to wireless mics. I think that same concept applies to any low cost wireless microphone, it may be all you can afford, just be aware of the potential limitations and compromises related to that cost.

Ah, that's ok.

I don't know if it was actually a phone conversation, I was told "I heard from Behringer that" or something like that. It was a while ago.

As for the price, I too, don't mind the Behringer's price, but yes their support is sketchy at best and non-existent most of the time. If I were to purchase something from behringer it probably would be as a last-minute, low-cost emergency. I would not expect the quality and support of a Sure, ETC, or any other theatrical manufacturer. But, then again, my high school has several Behringer 16-ch sound boards, lights, a light board, two equalizers, four wired mics, and an amp. We haven't had a problem with ANY of them. I can only think about what they would have (or rather not have) if they purchased equipment from the "better" manufacturers. Of course, they were all purchased with the "You get what you pay for" attitude, and most have exceeded expectations. The only thing that has failed were the wireless microphones.

 

[photoatdv]

Chris, I do not disagree that the higher end reputable systems are going to be a lot more bulletproof than the cheaper ones.

However if you simply don't have the money available to spend, what choice do you have? Refuse to buy anything unless you can buy the best? That won't get you much of anywhere (unless mgmt is playing a negotiating game with their budget, in which case this may be the right tactic

A good "engineer" will do the best with available resources in addition to identifying the additional resources required to do better. I, for example, have gone a long way building up a set of 18 wireless using very little money. And, with the exception of one or two channels that give us trouble now and then (which I have pushed into the last slots for ensemble roles -- and I can probably still tune those), these are working great for the $25/seat we charge our patrons to see a show.

And prudent emergency planning (i.e. backup floor mics, pickup from neighbor's lav) always helps. In the several Broadway shows I've seen I have noticed mics going out in at least two of them, so it's not necessarily always fixed by $$ -- even the best have the same issues.

If I had 10 grand to spend on mics this year, sure I'd run to Sennheiser or Shure and buy some nice units. But I don't, and probably never will at this theater. Same with the boards ... a $10k budget and I'd have a much higher end Soundcraft, A&H, Midas or Yamaha LS9-32 on my table ... but for around $1000 I can still get a used LX7 that works really well.

When resources are tight, I always use the 80/20 rule (achieve 80% of the benefit for 20% of the cost/effort) ... it generally results in a very good outcome.

-- John

On a musical I did a few months ago, I found an old wireless mic in storage. I manage to find thae recievers of that brand in a pile of stuff torn out when we had a new system installed. Guess what-- It worked!!! Now there was quite a bit of noise, but since I was only using it a couple of times as a podium mic, it worked fine(and took care of the stupid actor who didn't understand projecting!).

Oh by the way, does anybody think this would be worth trying to fix: We have an old wireless that somebody unscerwed the wire mesh cover and managed to pull loose the wires from the-- what is it called... I'm tired... the thingy inside the mic to the reciever. It looks like that is the only damage. If I reattach the wires do you think it would work?

Back on the note of his problem, is borrowing mics from a church or getting somebody to donate/ loan old stuff an option? That would REALLY save money.

 

[greghouse]

I have a possible solution. You must buy two mics though.... But I priced it out and per mic it comes out to about the same. 129 Pounds = $257.75 This unit is $599, so for two mics in a case, it is a reasonable deal.

Here's what's included:
AKG
WIRELESS BODYPACK SYSTEM PACKAGE
Package Consists of (2) SR300 Receivers, (2) PT300 Bodypack Transmitters, (2) Brand New C417 Omni Lavalier Mics, and (1) ATA Case. Frequency US3
Sold as Package Only.
$599.00
>> 30 DAY WARRANTY* <<

AKG Wireless System Package (At the bottom)

 

[jkowtko]

Oh by the way, does anybody think this would be worth trying to fix: We have an old wireless that somebody unscerwed the wire mesh cover and managed to pull loose the wires from the-- what is it called... I'm tired... the thingy inside the mic to the reciever. It looks like that is the only damage. If I reattach the wires do you think it would work?

I have the AKG WMS80 systems and over time have gradually bought more used units for spares and extra channels.

About a year ago I bought one on eBay for $2 (yes two dollars) plus $10 shipping ... the seller said it didn't work. It showed up, the antenna had broken loose from the transmitter pack. I resoldered it to the PC board (common problem in these units) and it seems to work fine. Looks pretty beat up, but that's a $400+ unit that I got for two bucks.

So, yes, used equipment can be very, very cost effective if you know what you're doing and are willing to put in a little handyman work to clean it up and fix problems. These wireless units are sometimes so simple (a PC board and a few wires) ... so if it doesn't work, either the PC board is fried (or caked with salty sweat), or there's a broken wire somewhere ...

 

[adude23]

Hmm what does everybody think to this?
I have found someone local ie. freeadds who can sell me a the double version of the Sennheiser ew545G2 EW545 G2 for about £170 or $348.80 this may be a way i can go for an extra £50 it does sound worth it