Which subwoofer for 400 member audience ? Along with Quest QS-350 Speakers

[stonehedge99]

Hi,

Any compact subwoofer that would deliver some medium bass for the audience. There will be about 400 people in the hall and they are a quite listening audience ? Im not looking for discotheque kind of bass. Im asking this because i might be forced to buy Quest QS-350 speakers (12" woofer + compression driver, 350 rms, 700w peak, 98db spl nominal, 50-20Khz response). Maybe four of them or will two of them suffice if i use a base bin ? I plan to drive these 4 mains speakers using a crown xls 802 @ 4 ohms, which delivers 800 rms per side. 2 Qeust speakers on each side will form a 4 ohms load matching this amp.

Has anyone heard the Quest QS-350 speakers in action or any idea about the brand in general ? Will 4 Quest speakers for front side suffice with some medium bass ? They are rated 50Hz-20Khz does that mean they will provide some decent bass ?

Im not looking for very deep bass. Its a live show with an emcee speaking and rest fo the time music playback from cd.

Alternative to the subwoofer, i have two 15" abs body 350 rms handling speakers (45-20Khz response range) lying idle with a crown xls 202 amp idle too. Can i run both those speakers with the xls 202 in bridge mono or something to deliver only bass ? Is this possible ? Since it might help take the load off the four 12" speakers and the two 15" speakers will have nothing but the bass freq to handle ? Will i need a crossover for this ??

Thanks

 

[museav]

Many of the same issues as your other thread, it is a waste of your and others time for people to recommend something that you can't or won't do so please let us know your budget, what brands are available to you and so on.

Some basics for adding a subwoofer are that you will need a crossover, either a dedicated crossover or one integrated into a powered subwoofer. It also makes no sense to add a subwoofer if it can't provide some improvement in low frequency response and/or output. When you start talking one sub being used with either two or four (and I'm still not clear on the perceived benefit of four) mains then you are likely looking at a subwoofer that is a step or two above the mains.

As far as using the two 15" speakers, that goes directly to the issue above. The Quest QS-350 speakers you noted are rated at 50-20kHz (+/-3dB) on the product datasheet and the web page (the manuals states 60-19kHz (+/-3dB) and the response chart in the manual shows more like 60-19kHz (+/-5dB), 98dB@1W/1m "nominal" and 95dB@1W/1m "Wideband" (I have no idea what "nominal" and "wideband" represent and the manual states 93dB@1W/1m at 1kHz), 400W RMS/700W Peak (which makes no sense) and 124dB "nominal"/127dB Peak maximum output (at some unknown distance and that don't match the other numbers). So the specs leave a lot to be desired and that makes things difficult to predict. But the issue is that whatever you do for subwoofers would need to improve the low frequency response and/or output beyond what two (or four) mains can provide in order to provide any benefit and apparently to do so when driven by your XLS202. So would you get that from your 15" speakers? Who knows without even knowing what they are, but I kind of doubt it unless they are significantly different from your mains.

As an aside, did you realize that the Quest QS-350 are a asymmetrical horn? Actually, apparently doubly asymmetrical. Not only is the horizontal pattern 30-45 degrees wide at the top of the pattern and 60 degrees wide at the bottom, but the nominal 60 degree vertical pattern is also apparently aimed down 15 degrees (+15/-45 instead of +/-30). Just something to consider in where you place them and how you orient them.

 

[FMEng]

From your earlier description of doing shows that are predominently voice with some music fillers, there is no need for sub woofer. Again, save your money and put it toward TWO excellent speakers.

We have no idea what speaker products are marketed in your country, but you seem to have a nack for choosing ones that nobody ever heard of. I learned that it pays to be skeptical of equipment that isn't well known. I suggest looking into worldwide brands like JBL, EAW, EV, Community, Yamaha, Peavey. They all have and deserve good reputations. They also have meaningful specifications that are made under measurement standards that make them comparable.

 

[stonehedge99]

Hello Guys,

Yes i admit some of the top brands like yamaha etc are out of reach in budget here. I FINALLY FINISHED buying the speakers. They are four Behringer B215XL units. These were the best we could budget for on this project. So now it just comes to arranging them and using them. Thanks for being helpful on many elements which aided me to make a correct decision. I spent 1200 USD equivalent on 4 of these.

Just one thing on the comment on my nameless brand speakers that i already have. You wont imagine that those two no name brand speakers which costed me half the price of these speakers sound much deeper and richer in sound than these. Impeccable sound and i used to run them with an underpowered XLS 202 amp because each of these speakers are 350 rms @ 8 ohms. Also ive used those two speakers for about 100 shows, ive pushed them to the max and theyve covered 400 member audiences. Literally. With just one XLS 202 amp. I should admit that occsionally the amp used to clip for a second or two. Unfortunately i couldnt get the same speakers this time as they are out of production.

So despite all the mathematics and sinewaves and all those theories under the ocsilloscope that we apply, real life has its own peculiar way of working. Also considering what many have told me about how the 4 speaker setup might be mute. There are many who have brushed off my plan of using an XLS 802 with 4 speakers for 400 people. I just never told them till now that ive run shows with my 2 no-name brand speakers and one XLS 202 covering 400 people with excellent punch. Ok now i might be imagining or exaggerating, BUT here is the low down, almost 3 out of 4 shows. Im just being honest here. 3 out of every 4 shows people come up to me and tell me how amazingly clear and fantastic the sound was. Now wait, before you say they are idiots who dont know about accoustics. Who gives a ****. Are we doing shows for accousitic experts ?. No. As long as the lay audience is impressed, were successful. All of us concentrate on giving good audio to whom ? To people who dont know anything about audio. But their ears tel them the truth, thats why you spend so much time studying and acquiring the right equipment. But still i respect every opinion given here. All im saying is, that doesnt mean a no-name brand cant perform etc. Ive seen it, done it and doing it every week in and out. Also plz note im doing training shows which are education based etc mostly projections with sound. But yet people come up to us and ask what speakers they are and if they can acquire a pair for their organisation etc. So theories and real life are two seperate things.

Even the Behringers ive bought today cant stand up to my no-name brand ones. So dont write unknown brands off. You never know. And the same way theres nothing that says just because some product is expensive or well known its going to sound fabulous.

Regards

 

[chausman]

I will add, behringer is a known brand, but they are not known for quality. The Yamaha, JBL, etc ARE known for their quality. If you've got something that works for you though, then great. I'm glad you've found something you can use.


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[josh88]

Nobody was saying unknown brands can't be just as good. The concern was support later, and track record. If you we're looking at buying a brand that you've never worked with or heard of and nobody knows it, there's no way to know till you buy something whether it will sound good, hold up, and not die in a week. With a well known brand you've at least got a track record to look at the quality and experience others have had. If you're going in to a new speaker completely blind with no experience you could find out you wasted your money. Or you could luck out and its a great product that nobody has heard of.

 

[stonehedge99]

Yes Josh. Very true what you say. Its a matter of luck like you put it. Imagine those inexpensive speakers that i procured 4 years ago. Theyve been pumping and thumping till date. And i was surprised once when we had to club two session groups/spectator batches together making 400 people. We had no option out. So we ran the amp to max and it clipped during peak highlights but managed the show with aplomb. Sometimes some unkown brands have better/equal quality to a top notch brand. Only thing is the company that made them doesnt have the luck, infrastructure, capital and marketing skills that it takes to establish a brand name. Ive known several performing artists who are extremely talented and should be millionaires but are struggling to survive just because they didnt get the right platform.

 

[Tex]

Sometimes some unkown brands have better/equal quality to a top notch brand.

I would opine that one might get lucky and purchase a well-built product from an unknown manufacturer. The chances of every batch of product being of the same quality is where it gets iffy. One pays a premium for quality control, service after the sale and a warranty.

 

[stonehedge99]

This is not only about the equipment, but also about the math and theories underlying pa sound. When discussing this subject i have been at many times come down with the feeling that my planned system might be severely underpowered for 300 people. But imagine if i had asked if i could cover an audience of 400 or lets even underplay and say 300 people using my crown xls 202 hooked up with two noname brand speakers. Theory and math would definitely say that i cant cover that audience with that setup. But in real life it works.

 

[DuckJordan]

actually, You'd be just fine for spoken word and background music. Now rock concert or a Club scenario not so much. This is why knowing what type of an event goes into the math. It seems you are stuck on No-name speakers being excellent. You may have had decent speakers your first batch, but the second is up for anyone's grabs. If I were to move my show into your space (not that this scenario is showing that) and I asked you for the docs on your speakers. If you showed me those speakers info and it left out or didn't explain how they got those numbers. I'd say we are going to need different speakers, Whether or not they might cover the set isnt an issue. Its an issue because I don't know the gear, nor can i deduce how they will respond to my show. I know you are looking at this for just this event but what happens in 6 months when the event is over and you need to use them again? Are they able to build into another system? Can you accurately tell whether they will perform well with other speakers?

 

[stonehedge99]

Yeah i can tell very well that after 6 months x 8 = 4 years , they still perform well. And they handle just about any and every hall thrown at them. Id say thats genius for a small company making them locally, thought they look excellent and exactly like the JBL EON 15 speakers.This may not suit you, fine. To each his own. If some asked me about my existing speakers and how theyd react on an event, id know for sure. I dont know much of sine wave math, but ill know for sure how theyll sound. Now i cant say the same about the new speakers ive bought. Even though they are well known behringers. Ive got to try them out in a large hall and then post back here. Some have said the four speaker set up will fall flat. But many told me an xls 202 with two 15" full range speakers just wont cut it for 200 spectators etc. After that 4 years have passed and im using them for many shows with a max touching of 400 people.

So i dont know, the behringers might fall flat as some have predicted or history might repeat itself and they might sound fabulous too chucking math out the window. Im not trying to prove something / someone is wrong here. Im just trying to say sound is so subjective and unpredicatable. If i put 2 moving heads next to each other and ask which one is brighter any monkey with half a brain can point that out. Try putting 2 speakers and finding out which one is underpowered, phase reversed etc. Normal people cant put their finger to it.

 

[museav]

Im just trying to say sound is so subjective and unpredicatable. If i put 2 moving heads next to each other and ask which one is brighter any monkey with half a brain can point that out. Try putting 2 speakers and finding out which one is underpowered, phase reversed etc. Normal people cant put their finger to it.

There are certainly subjective aspects to audio but isn't your role to try to make it less unpredictable and avoid issues like underpowered systems (and it is systems that are underpowered, speakers cannot by themselves be underpowered)? And while people may not specifically realize that a system is underpowered or that one speaker in a pair has the polarity inverted (not the phase reversed), the vast majority of people would be able to hear the difference between that and a properly operating system. Might you get by with systems with such issues, sure. Could the audience have experienced better sound at not added cost, almost definitely. Is your job as a 'professional' to try to avoid such situations, one would think so. Is it reasonable for those hiring you to expect you to address such issues and provide the best sound possible, most clients would probably think so.

As far as 'no name' products, the challenge is that others likely have no experience with the products or much knowledge of them and there is often little or no information available, thus making it difficult for others to address them. It's great that your 'no name' speakers work so well for you but it also would have been helpful to know upfront that you felt that way and to provide any available information on the speakers so people would have a better idea of your current reference.

Related to that, if your existing speakers work as well as you suggest, and momentary clipping of the amp is not at all unusual as long as it is not constant or prolonged, then why are you changing anything? I've read back though all of the posts and can't find where any problem(s) you are encountering or any specific goals for improvement were identified. It's difficult for others to address anything more than generalities if they don't know the problems you're trying to address or your goals and expectations for any solutions.

To a point you mentioned earlier, it is true that some people manage to get great results from lesser systems while others get poor results from higher end systems and gear. Some of that may be due to the value of the equipment rather than the name on it, but at least in my experience the result is more often a factor of the ability and skill of the system operator. Getting the most of what you have is typically much more a matter of knowing how to use what you have most effectively.

 

[stonehedge99]

Oh then maybe im really adept at sound management that im able to squeeze such quality out of such a cheap system. Maybe ive just not realized it.