Automated Fixtures Why is intelligent lighting "dumb" on an ETC Lightboard

[derekleffew]

...So if you only have one rack of 96 dimmers you can get the full load of 10 fixtures with room to spare. But if you have 192 dimmers and you want to use all of them you might want to look into renting another console or just getting 4 Macs as that is all that will fit channel wise. ...

Sorry Pork, your argument doesn't hold water, as a user CAN, and often SHOULD patch multiple dimmers into a single Control Channel.

Also, it's extremely unlikely that all 192 (or more), dimmers will be in use for this production. Our own STEVETERRY's article/survey, What's Connected?, shows an average of 17% of dimmers go unused for a production in a 120V system. One CB member has 192 dimmers in his High School auditorium, but can only account for about 80 of them! (As in, only about 80 are wired to usuable circuits.) More-over many/most High Schools don't own 80 fixtures.

Also, I disagree about 8-bit vs. 16-bit. I feel it IS worth the extra two channels to run MAC500s in mode2 (14 channel).

The largest show I've programmed on an Exp3-800 was 96 dimmers, 12 Martin 1220s, 12 I-Beams, and 12 ColorFaders. The experience gave me the push I needed to learn the HogII.

 

[porkchop]

Sorry Pork, your argument doesn't hold water, as a user CAN, and often SHOULD patch multiple dimmers into a single Control Channel.

Derek you bring up a good point, but I think that is really more of a matter of lighting design theory and a lot less what I was getting at. The first thing I said was look at your current plot, not count how many dimmers you have in your rack. 250 minus whatever number of channels you are using will tell you how many you have available. I certainly can think of situations where multiple dimmers into one channel could really free up space on the console and that is a very good idea in this situation that I hadn't thought of, but I chose to use 96 and 192 because they are common. I'm just trying to show the kind of thinking that needs to happen if the OP wants to use a board with a limiting number of channels like the Express 250 (for instance the rig you listed I would highly doubt could be controlled by the Express 250 for a multitude of reasons one being channel count).

As far and the 8 bit vs 16 bit. Although I'd say that the finer pan and tilt is more inportant that the vector movement all I have to say is I designed for 4 years in 8 bit and was fine with the results. If there's room for 16 bit movement use it, it's kind of a pain because you have to get close with one channel and then switch to another one and it might be close enough or might not, but that teaches the user all the wonderful things that a modern ML board does for you.

FWIW my hs had 144 dimmers (96 + 48), and my biggest show on a expression 3 was 2 technobeams, 2 studio spots, and 10 scrolls of a type I don't remember.

 

[derekleffew]

...If there's room for 16 bit movement use it, it's kind of a pain because you have to get close with one channel and then switch to another one and it might be close enough or might not, ...

Expression software > v2.01 does not work this way. Rather than having 255 steps of movement, in 16-bit mode, the console reads position as something between 0 and 65535 [(256^2)-1], inclusive.

 

[tekgoddess]

I have a wonderful relationship between my ETC board and my Martin light jockey contoller. I write the Martin cues then I can easily import them to the ETC board by assigning them a channel.
It can also be done the opposite way with the ETC cues controlled by Light Jockey but it's not as user friendly. Maybe look into a seperate controller or the combined ones mentioned by other posters.

 

[LightStud]

I have a wonderful relationship between my ETC board and my Martin light jockey contoller. I write the Martin cues then I can easily import them to the ETC board by assigning them a channel.
It can also be done the opposite way with the ETC cues controlled by Light Jockey but it's not as user friendly. Maybe look into a seperate controller or the combined ones mentioned by other posters.

??? "...easily import them into the ETC board by assigning them [cues?] a channel"? Assigning cues to a channel is a foreign concept to me, and most others I'm sure. Importing anything into an ETC console is only possible with the Expression or Obsession OLE, to my knowledge.

Please elaborate. Is midi involved? DMX in?

 

[tekgoddess]

On the Martin Light Jockey I first write the cues (beginning as sequences) and save them as cues. I then can open an Icon on the Martin Light Jockey computer that looks like light board channel distribution. I go to a new channel and import whatever LJ cue that I want to my ETC board to that channel. I can use it with any of my ETC cues that I've written. It's all about DMX.

 

[Mullet1215]

I have a wonderful relationship between my ETC board and my Martin light jockey contoller. I write the Martin cues then I can easily import them to the ETC board by assigning them a channel.
It can also be done the opposite way with the ETC cues controlled by Light Jockey but it's not as user friendly. Maybe look into a seperate controller or the combined ones mentioned by other posters.

At the moment this is an idea that is in the lead because of Light Jockey's visualizer and ease of use. The only worry I would have about splitting up my moving and conventional lighting is coordinating between the two of them. But currently this is a viable solution for me.

 

[LightStud]

On the Martin Light Jockey I first write the cues (beginning as sequences) and save them as cues. I then can open an Icon on the Martin Light Jockey computer that looks like light board channel distribution. I go to a new channel and import whatever LJ cue that I want to my ETC board to that channel. I can use it with any of my ETC cues that I've written. It's all about DMX.

Please pardon my ignorance. Still not following.

#1. Which ETC console do you have?
#2. What cable(s) is/are connecting the ETC console and the Martin Light Jockey together, and what is/are their gender(s)?
#3. Where does the 5pin male XLR that carries DMX512A to the dimmers and movers plug in?
#4. Are you using the word "import" correctly?

 

[SteveB]

Please pardon my ignorance. Still not following.

#1. Which ETC console do you have?
#2. What cable(s) is/are connecting the ETC console and the Martin Light Jockey together, and what is/are their gender(s)?
#3. Where does the 5pin male XLR that carries DMX512A to the dimmers and movers plug in?
#4. Are you using the word "import" correctly?

I believe tekgoddess is most likely using either an Expression II/III or similar Insight, that accept DMX inputs. And yes it would be nice of folks would be specific as to which console, as the Express series does not support importing of DMX.

Steve B.

 

[thenelsontwins]

What is the time line and what is the expectation?

Although I agree that learning moving lights and all the junk they bring with them on a more 'traditional' desk is a great way to learn and understand how they work, unless you have the time and the patience... you aren't going to get too far.

Of course i say that having no knowledge of your skills. Personally, I have been doing this for some time now and I wouldn't even bother. If the funds are around to rent moving heads, than the funds are there to rent a moving light desk. A hog 1000 is a good place to start. Again, a learning curve, but the time you will save in tweaking the cues using a desk like that will be invaluable.

An Expression does the job, but don't bother with an Express, but again, I must ask how much time do you have to complete the task?

I don't know your situation. But I would really push for another console. I mean, yes, it is great to learn the 'hard way' but unless you have the time and patience, why pretend it is 1995 again?

 

[Mullet1215]

What is the time line and what is the expectation?

Although I agree that learning moving lights and all the junk they bring with them on a more 'traditional' desk is a great way to learn and understand how they work, unless you have the time and the patience... you aren't going to get too far.

Of course i say that having no knowledge of your skills. Personally, I have been doing this for some time now and I wouldn't even bother. If the funds are around to rent moving heads, than the funds are there to rent a moving light desk. A hog 1000 is a good place to start. Again, a learning curve, but the time you will save in tweaking the cues using a desk like that will be invaluable.

An Expression does the job, but don't bother with an Express, but again, I must ask how much time do you have to complete the task?

I don't know your situation. But I would really push for another console. I mean, yes, it is great to learn the 'hard way' but unless you have the time and patience, why pretend it is 1995 again?

The money is there for us to rent a more moving light based lighting controler. However we only have the rental equipment for a week proor to the show and I would very much like to already be able to know how to use the board when we recieve the rental so I can jump right into programing it. And for that reason, I was thinking that it may be easier to learn how to program the moving lights on a console that I was already familiar with rather than learn how to do both moving lights and conventional programing on a new board (such as the Hog).

I understand that the syntax is fairly similar on all of the different light boards. Do the moving light desks lack any of the features for conventional lighting and programing?

 

[TimMiller]

Most moving light desks do not have tons of faders used to control a bunch of lights. You just program your lights into groups or call them up by dimmer numbers. I never have really liked having tons of faders, i think its much easier to run a show cue to cue. If you program you show straight down a cue list you will not have any problems. And if you happen to be in the houston area, come play with ours

 

[Mullet1215]

And if you happen to be in the houston area, come play with ours

Thanks for the offer but I'm afraid thats a bit of a trip from Rhode Island. I had planned to run the show off cues anyway. I no longer use a large number of faders (as I did when I first learned how to operate a Light board) because you can end up with a different show each time and it is very innacurate.

 

[thenelsontwins]

I wholly understand your feelings on the subject. Short turnaround time, not a lot of rental time vs familiarity with the desk.

For what it is worth, if your are in the NE region, someone has to have a Jands Vista (of any variety) up that way, which is my console of choice now. I have never found any desk that is that straightforward and easy to use. You could have very limited knowledge of moving lights at the start of the day and by lunch have some looks up and running.

It is the desk that has completely changed the way I feel about lighting and especially programming. Easy, logical, and actually fun.

Jands Vista

I really can't say enough good things about the desk. Coming from the GrandMA, which is an awesome desk, but for 99% of what I have to do, the Jands Vista does it faster and less painfully.

I now love life again!

 

[Sony]

Thanks for the offer but I'm afraid thats a bit of a trip from Rhode Island. I had planned to run the show off cues anyway. I no longer use a large number of faders (as I did when I first learned how to operate a Light board) because you can end up with a different show each time and it is very innacurate.

Where in Rhode Island bro? I'm in the Bristol/Little Compton area, I might be able to come help you figure stuff out. Who are you renting from? High Output, ALPS, ATR/Treehouse, Theatrix, Barbizon? I'd love to drop by and help ya out.

 

[VL5]

ive put moving lighting on a express before, it is possible. I was a able to hang 6 VL5's and patch them in an hour, make sure you use the moving light features I believe it is # 15 on the setup menu and then you have some stuff simplified, to use the feature once you have them patched in push fixture ___ then you will have an attribute page show up wich you can go trackpad crazy with. As far as making them move program some subs, not sure if you know this but if you push the page button you can get to a second page of subs, to the best of my knowledge you can do like 10 pages or something like that i forgot. What i did when i have Moving mirror on that board was one page all subs and the second page effects. If you can write an effect good on that console then you are going to be OK, but an effect is the only way to make them move besides actuly moving them on the trackpad or on the fader. there is no effect engine. if i were you rent an ION, I programed a whole moving light show easily and it is very easy to use and cheap to rent good luck

 

[Spader]

It's so nice to have so many folks that can help with questions like these!

I have only one thing to add here, and that is in response to the comment that Focus Points are just Groups with a different name. This is misleading. Focus Points are referenced groups - meaning that if you have channels (parameters of fixtures) set to reference a Focus Point instead of simply setting levels for those parameters, you can update the Focus Point with new data and ALL CUES that reference that point will have that updated data on playback.

Groups do not perform this function in the Express/ion line.

Stepping back into the shadows...

Sarah

Sarah Clausen
Controls Product Manager
ETC, Inc.

No way. Really?? Kind of like palettes on the Hog?

I do believe that you have just made my life that much easier.