Will the HPL disappear?

almorton

Well-Known Member
What has happened this side of the pond is that, yes, the industry got concessions, but lamps are already becoming scarcer and more expensive because with the removal of the domestic market, entertainment lamps alone aren't really viable for the manufacturers who are no longer running high volume lines, without increasing prices. So although we can still use them, we may not be able to find them.
 
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rsmentele

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Premium Member
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What Al said....
I dont feel that the end of incandescent will be brought on by legislation/government, but by pure economics. Once it is no longer economically beneficial to produce a product that has limited demand, manufacturers will move on.
Sure, there may be a few small shops that will continue to produce product, but the cost or the quality will be undesirable. Take the PAR lamp as a perfect example. Can you find them? Sure, but either they cost quite a bit, or are of terrible quality with poor life expectancy.
 

JohnD

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After all, you can still buy gas mantles, but they aren't a 10 a penny commodity item any more.
I wonder if you can still get those cylinders of calcium oxide? :cool:
 

FMEng

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I posted a link to some details, in the news section. The only detail I can find suggests this will not apply to specialty bulbs, like those used in stage lighting. I hope someone can provide some information about the new rule. Paging @DELO72 .
 
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Jay Ashworth

Well-Known Member
This has been a *very* common occurrence on the back side of the popularity curve for lots of technologies.

You only need 35mm film, these days, for IR and UV, so those coating lines are running at the relevant, much reduced, capacity that drives the price way up. Long-distance telephony ceased being around to subsidize the local stuff -- radio stations can't get dry pairs for love or money these days; if you have one, you detail an employee to make sure it never gets away by accident.

And now it's quartz-halogen theatrical lamps.

I actually don't think the HPL will be *directly* subject to this problem: the lines that make those ain't makin' 60W household bulbs. LEDs will be what kills them. Keep your ears open for "FINAL BUY" notices, though, folks -- good manufacturers of small-market products actually do those, formally. (Smart ones do it, look at the preorders that come in over the next 6 months, and do about a 200% run before shutting down the line. *Really* smart ones don't disassemble the line for another 6 months. Smart wholesalers label the item as FINAL STOCK in their catalogs when they find out.)

But your house lights, and your freezers and ovens... they ain't gonna be happy.

Nobody pays attention to second- and third-order resultants from obsoleting an entire category of technology.

Like the 3G cellphone carriers. And OnStar.
 

Aaron Clarke

Well-Known Member
I posted a link to some details, in the news section. The only detail I can find suggests this will not apply to specialty bulbs, like those used in stage lighting. I hope someone can provide some information about the new rule. Paging @DELO72 .
Thanks for those details. I posted a very opinionated comment over there.

TLDR version: IMO, This is global capitalism lobbying in the disguise of environmentalism and will only harm the planet more.
 

FMEng

Well-Known Member
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But your house lights, and your freezers and ovens... they ain't gonna be happy.
Appliance bulbs are classified as specialty, not general purpose, so they are theoretically not affected. However, I imagine they share the same production lines, and could become scarce because they won't be profitable enough to keep making, regardless of legality.
 

Jay Ashworth

Well-Known Member
Appliance bulbs are classified as specialty, not general purpose, so they are theoretically not affected. However, I imagine they share the same production lines, and could become scarce because they won't be profitable enough to keep making, regardless of legality.
Ed Zachary!
 

DELO72

Well-Known Member
Hi Folks,

Put the panic button away. This "new" energy legislation is nothing of the sort. It merely reinstalls the rules already in place that were to go into effect in 2017 before Trump rescinded them. Nothing new here. No, HPLs and other Entertainment lamps are NOT impacted. This energy legislation affects GSL lamps- General Service Lamps. This is lighting for homes, offices, etc., the kind of which you can find at a Lowes or Home Depot.
In the August 2021 NOPR, DOE proposed to amend the definitions of general service lamp and general service incandescent lamp as follows: 18 General service lamp means a lamp that has an ANSI base; is able to operate at a voltage of 12 volts or 24 volts, at or between 100 to 130 volts, at or between 220 to 240 volts, or of 277 volts for integrated lamps (as defined in this section), or is able to operate at any voltage for non-integrated lamps (as defined in this section); has an initial lumen output of greater than or equal to 310 lumens (or 232 lumens for modified spectrum general service incandescent lamps) and less than or equal to 3,300 lumens; is not a light fixture; is not an LED downlight retrofit kit; and is used in general lighting applications.

As you can see below, HPLs and other major Theatrical types do not come close to qualifying. Everyone take a deep breath, smile, and go back to stressing about other things like COVID, Supply Chain issues, and the War in Ukraine. :)

General service lamps include, but are not limited to, general service incandescent lamps, compact fluorescent lamps, general service light-emitting diode lamps, and general service organic light emitting diode lamps. General service lamps do not include: (1) Appliance lamps; (2) Black light lamps; (3) Bug lamps; (4) Colored lamps; (5) G shape lamps with a diameter of 5 inches or more as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see §430.3); (6) General service fluorescent lamps; (7) High intensity discharge lamps; (8) Infrared lamps; (9) J, JC, JCD, JCS, JCV, JCX, JD, JS, and JT shape lamps that do not have Edison screw bases; (10) Lamps that have a wedge base or prefocus base; 19 (11) Left-hand thread lamps; (12) Marine lamps; (13) Marine signal service lamps; (14) Mine service lamps; (15) MR shape lamps that have a first number symbol equal to 16 (diameter equal to 2 inches) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see §430.3), operate at 12 volts, and have a lumen output greater than or equal to 800; (16) Other fluorescent lamps; (17) Plant light lamps; (18) R20 short lamps; (19) Reflector lamps (as defined in this section) that have a first number symbol less than 16 (diameter less than 2 inches) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see §430.3) and that do not have E26/E24, E26d, E26/50x39, E26/53x39, E29/28, E29/53x39, E39, E39d, EP39, or EX39 bases; (20) S shape or G shape lamps that have a first number symbol less than or equal to 12.5 (diameter less than or equal to 1.5625 inches) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see §430.3); (21) Sign service lamps; (22) Silver bowl lamps; (23) Showcase lamps; (24) Specialty MR lamps; 20 (25) T-shape lamps that have a first number symbol less than or equal to 8 (diameter less than or equal to 1 inch) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3), nominal overall length less than 12 inches, and that are not compact fluorescent lamps (as defined in this section); (26) Traffic signal lamps. 86 FR 46611, 46625-46626. General service incandescent lamp means a standard incandescent or halogen type lamp that is intended for general service applications; has a medium screw base; has a lumen range of not less than 310 lumens and not more than 2,600 lumens or, in the case of a modified spectrum lamp, not less than 232 lumens and not more than 1,950 lumens; and is capable of being operated at a voltage range at least partially within 110 and 130 volts; however, this definition does not apply to the following incandescent lamps— (1) An appliance lamp; (2) A black light lamp; (3) A bug lamp; (4) A colored lamp; (5) An infrared lamp; (6) A left-hand thread lamp; (7) A marine lamp; (8) A marine signal service lamp; 21 (9) A mine service lamp; (10) A plant light lamp; (11) A reflector lamp; (12) A rough service lamp; (13) A shatter-resistant lamp (including a shatter-proof lamp and a shatterprotected lamp); (14) A sign service lamp; (15) A silver bowl lamp; (16) A showcase lamp; (17) A 3-way incandescent lamp; (18) A traffic signal lamp; (19) A vibration service lamp; (20) A G shape lamp (as defined in ANSI C78.20) (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) and ANSI C79.1-2002 (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) with a diameter of 5 inches or more; (21) A T shape lamp (as defined in ANSI C78.20) (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) and ANSI C79.1-2002 (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) and that uses not more than 40 watts or has a length of more than 10 inches; and (22) A B, BA, CA, F, G16-1/2, G-25, G30, S, or M-14 lamp (as defined in ANSI C79.1-2002) (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) and ANSI C78.20 (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) of 40 watts or less. 86 FR 46611, 46625-46626.
 

STEVETERRY

Well-Known Member
Hi Folks,

Put the panic button away. This "new" energy legislation is nothing of the sort. It merely reinstalls the rules already in place that were to go into effect in 2017 before Trump rescinded them. Nothing new here. No, HPLs and other Entertainment lamps are NOT impacted. This energy legislation affects GSL lamps- General Service Lamps. This is lighting for homes, offices, etc., the kind of which you can find at a Lowes or Home Depot.
In the August 2021 NOPR, DOE proposed to amend the definitions of general service lamp and general service incandescent lamp as follows: 18 General service lamp means a lamp that has an ANSI base; is able to operate at a voltage of 12 volts or 24 volts, at or between 100 to 130 volts, at or between 220 to 240 volts, or of 277 volts for integrated lamps (as defined in this section), or is able to operate at any voltage for non-integrated lamps (as defined in this section); has an initial lumen output of greater than or equal to 310 lumens (or 232 lumens for modified spectrum general service incandescent lamps) and less than or equal to 3,300 lumens; is not a light fixture; is not an LED downlight retrofit kit; and is used in general lighting applications.

As you can see below, HPLs and other major Theatrical types do not come close to qualifying. Everyone take a deep breath, smile, and go back to stressing about other things like COVID, Supply Chain issues, and the War in Ukraine. :)

General service lamps include, but are not limited to, general service incandescent lamps, compact fluorescent lamps, general service light-emitting diode lamps, and general service organic light emitting diode lamps. General service lamps do not include: (1) Appliance lamps; (2) Black light lamps; (3) Bug lamps; (4) Colored lamps; (5) G shape lamps with a diameter of 5 inches or more as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see §430.3); (6) General service fluorescent lamps; (7) High intensity discharge lamps; (8) Infrared lamps; (9) J, JC, JCD, JCS, JCV, JCX, JD, JS, and JT shape lamps that do not have Edison screw bases; (10) Lamps that have a wedge base or prefocus base; 19 (11) Left-hand thread lamps; (12) Marine lamps; (13) Marine signal service lamps; (14) Mine service lamps; (15) MR shape lamps that have a first number symbol equal to 16 (diameter equal to 2 inches) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see §430.3), operate at 12 volts, and have a lumen output greater than or equal to 800; (16) Other fluorescent lamps; (17) Plant light lamps; (18) R20 short lamps; (19) Reflector lamps (as defined in this section) that have a first number symbol less than 16 (diameter less than 2 inches) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see §430.3) and that do not have E26/E24, E26d, E26/50x39, E26/53x39, E29/28, E29/53x39, E39, E39d, EP39, or EX39 bases; (20) S shape or G shape lamps that have a first number symbol less than or equal to 12.5 (diameter less than or equal to 1.5625 inches) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see §430.3); (21) Sign service lamps; (22) Silver bowl lamps; (23) Showcase lamps; (24) Specialty MR lamps; 20 (25) T-shape lamps that have a first number symbol less than or equal to 8 (diameter less than or equal to 1 inch) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3), nominal overall length less than 12 inches, and that are not compact fluorescent lamps (as defined in this section); (26) Traffic signal lamps. 86 FR 46611, 46625-46626. General service incandescent lamp means a standard incandescent or halogen type lamp that is intended for general service applications; has a medium screw base; has a lumen range of not less than 310 lumens and not more than 2,600 lumens or, in the case of a modified spectrum lamp, not less than 232 lumens and not more than 1,950 lumens; and is capable of being operated at a voltage range at least partially within 110 and 130 volts; however, this definition does not apply to the following incandescent lamps— (1) An appliance lamp; (2) A black light lamp; (3) A bug lamp; (4) A colored lamp; (5) An infrared lamp; (6) A left-hand thread lamp; (7) A marine lamp; (8) A marine signal service lamp; 21 (9) A mine service lamp; (10) A plant light lamp; (11) A reflector lamp; (12) A rough service lamp; (13) A shatter-resistant lamp (including a shatter-proof lamp and a shatterprotected lamp); (14) A sign service lamp; (15) A silver bowl lamp; (16) A showcase lamp; (17) A 3-way incandescent lamp; (18) A traffic signal lamp; (19) A vibration service lamp; (20) A G shape lamp (as defined in ANSI C78.20) (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) and ANSI C79.1-2002 (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) with a diameter of 5 inches or more; (21) A T shape lamp (as defined in ANSI C78.20) (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) and ANSI C79.1-2002 (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) and that uses not more than 40 watts or has a length of more than 10 inches; and (22) A B, BA, CA, F, G16-1/2, G-25, G30, S, or M-14 lamp (as defined in ANSI C79.1-2002) (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) and ANSI C78.20 (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) of 40 watts or less. 86 FR 46611, 46625-46626.
Drops mic. Walks off stage.

Thank you, Mark.

ST
 

DELO72

Well-Known Member
That made my day Steve. Totally has me laughing. Thank you for that. Hope you are well.

Cheers,

Mark
 

JohnD

Well-Known Member
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Jay Ashworth

Well-Known Member
General service lamps include, but are not limited to, general service incandescent lamps, compact fluorescent lamps, general service light-emitting diode lamps, and general service organic light emitting diode lamps.

Broken up for ease of reading:
:)-))

General service lamps do not include:
(1) Appliance lamps;
(2) Black light lamps;
(3) Bug lamps;
(4) Colored lamps;
(5) G shape lamps with a diameter of 5 inches or more as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see §430.3);
(6) General service fluorescent lamps;
(7) High intensity discharge lamps;
(8) Infrared lamps;
(9) J, JC, JCD, JCS, JCV, JCX, JD, JS, and JT shape lamps that do not have Edison screw bases;
(10) Lamps that have a wedge base or prefocus base; 19
(11) Left-hand thread lamps;
(12) Marine lamps;
(13) Marine signal service lamps;
(14) Mine service lamps;
(15) MR shape lamps that have a first number symbol equal to 16 (diameter equal to 2 inches) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see §430.3), operate at 12 volts, and have a lumen output greater than or equal to 800;
(16) Other fluorescent lamps;
(17) Plant light lamps;
(18) R20 short lamps;
(19) Reflector lamps (as defined in this section) that have a first number symbol less than 16 (diameter less than 2 inches) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see §430.3) and that do not have E26/E24, E26d, E26/50x39, E26/53x39, E29/28, E29/53x39, E39, E39d, EP39, or EX39 bases; (20) S shape or G shape lamps that have a first number symbol less than or equal to 12.5 (diameter less than or equal to 1.5625 inches) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see §430.3);
(21) Sign service lamps;
(22) Silver bowl lamps;
(23) Showcase lamps;
(24) Specialty MR lamps; 20
(25) T-shape lamps that have a first number symbol less than or equal to 8 (diameter less than or equal to 1 inch) as defined in ANSI C79.1–2002 (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3), nominal overall length less than 12 inches, and that are not compact fluorescent lamps (as defined in this section);
(26) Traffic signal lamps. 86 FR 46611, 46625-46626. General service incandescent lamp means a standard incandescent or halogen type lamp that is intended for general service applications; has a medium screw base; has a lumen range of not less than 310 lumens and not more than 2,600 lumens or, in the case of a modified spectrum lamp, not less than 232 lumens and not more than 1,950 lumens; and is capable of being operated at a voltage range at least partially within 110 and 130 volts;
[ deep breath ]
however, this definition does not apply to the following incandescent lamps—
(1) An appliance lamp;
(2) A black light lamp;
(3) A bug lamp;
(4) A colored lamp;
(5) An infrared lamp;
(6) A left-hand thread lamp;
(7) A marine lamp;
(8) A marine signal service lamp; 21
(9) A mine service lamp;
(10) A plant light lamp;
(11) A reflector lamp;
(12) A rough service lamp;
(13) A shatter-resistant lamp (including a shatter-proof lamp and a shatterprotected lamp);
(14) A sign service lamp;
(15) A silver bowl lamp;
(16) A showcase lamp;
(17) A 3-way incandescent lamp;
(18) A traffic signal lamp;
(19) A vibration service lamp;
(20) A G shape lamp (as defined in ANSI C78.20) (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) and ANSI C79.1-2002 (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) with a diameter of 5 inches or more;
(21) A T shape lamp (as defined in ANSI C78.20) (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) and ANSI C79.1-2002 (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) and that uses not more than 40 watts or has a length of more than 10 inches; and
(22) A B, BA, CA, F, G16-1/2, G-25, G30, S, or M-14 lamp (as defined in ANSI C79.1-2002) (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) and ANSI C78.20 (incorporated by reference; see § 430.3) of 40 watts or less. 86 FR 46611, 46625-46626.
And here's where that gets complicated, @DELO72:

That second block appears to be largely the same as the first block (a list of things not General Service Lamps, and hence not restricted from manufacture)... but because of that, it becomes unclear what the "this definition" at the head of the second block applies to.

Or: "huh?"

It really feels like that second block should be exceptions-to-the-exceptions--things which *are* (again) subject to manufacture restriction. Was this somehow just an infelicity of copy-pasta? Am I misreading it?

Or did they miswrite it?
 

StradivariusBone

Custom Title
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Everyone's talking about the HPL. I'm holding out for the HPL+
 

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