Work and House lights

[renegadeblack]

I'm sure the school has a backup system. Emergency lighting is required in any public building. At MVPAC certain lights in our house lighting system are connected to an ETC ELTS system which bypasses the dimmers and connects them directly to the backup generator if the power fails. It is impossible to turn off the lights while the genset is running without cutting the service. There is no off switch and there is no circuit breaker in the dimmer room for it ether as the backup genset control and breakers are in a completely seperate room in the building. I'm sure your school has some type of backup system, maybe if you were to take a picture of your schools dimmer closet and post it here we could be of some more assistance in maybe recognizing what type of emergency system you may have.

Well part of the reason that I was so concerned was that when I killed the power to the rack, no emergency lights came on. There are two emergency relays that control a row of the work lights and a few house lights aswell. The only reason that I can tell what they control was because when you press the test button on the relays, the lights go out. I had assumed that when I cut the power to the rack, those relays would get flipped. As I said, I saw a guy there who was working on the system one day and haven't heard news about whether or not it had been fixed or have I gotten a chance to test if it had been fixed. Granted I'm not even certain if the emergency system supplies power if there is electricity present. I'm also not certain that the relays react depending on whether or not there is power going into the rack. I will take pictures though of all of the equipment involved including the relays and the emergency transformers in the basement a little ways away. When I spoke to the guy, he seemed to specify that those transformers supplied the lights in the auditorium.

 

[Sony]

Well part of the reason that I was so concerned was that when I killed the power to the rack, no emergency lights came on. There are two emergency relays that control a row of the work lights and a few house lights aswell. The only reason that I can tell what they control was because when you press the test button on the relays, the lights go out. I had assumed that when I cut the power to the rack, those relays would get flipped. As I said, I saw a guy there who was working on the system one day and haven't heard news about whether or not it had been fixed or have I gotten a chance to test if it had been fixed. Granted I'm not even certain if the emergency system supplies power if there is electricity present. I'm also not certain that the relays react depending on whether or not there is power going into the rack. I will take pictures though of all of the equipment involved including the relays and the emergency transformers in the basement a little ways away. When I spoke to the guy, he seemed to specify that those transformers supplied the lights in the auditorium.

Killing the feed to the rack will not turn the emergency lighting on. There is no second feed going to the rack and usually the emergency lighting bypasses the rack all together when the power fails as there is no point in powering the entire rack. Not only that but the backup generator wont supply power if it isn't running obviously, so nothing will turn on. You wont be able to test it without the help of your maintenance department and I don't recommend you do so anyways because it is most likely unnecessary since when you pushed the test button it worked and thats what the test button is for. The only way to test the system otherwise would be to start up the backup generator and then cut the feed to the main transformer which feeds the rack. Seriously it's not worth it.

Just trust that your system will work, there is no reason so far that you have stated that it shouldn't. If you are really that worried about it then talk to your head of facilities as they should know if the guy who came in and serviced the system fixed it or not.

 

[renegadeblack]

Killing the feed to the rack will not turn the emergency lighting on. There is no second feed going to the rack and usually the emergency lighting bypasses the rack all together when the power fails as there is no point in powering the entire rack. Not only that but the backup generator wont supply power if it isn't running obviously, so nothing will turn on. You wont be able to test it without the help of your maintenance department and I don't recommend you do so anyways because it is most likely unnecessary since when you pushed the test button it worked and thats what the test button is for. The only way to test the system otherwise would be to start up the backup generator and then cut the feed to the main transformer which feeds the rack. Seriously it's not worth it.

Just trust that your system will work, there is no reason so far that you have stated that it shouldn't. If you are really that worried about it then talk to your head of facilities as they should know if the guy who came in and serviced the system fixed it or not.

I wasn't sure if since the emergency lights are just a few of the regular house lights, they ran off the same power as the rack does. I'll draw a diagram to try to explain it. Also, we don't use a backup generator, there are these huge sets of batteries in the basement that are used for backup. I wasn't sure if those need to have the power cut in order to kick in or if they always give off power. I'll take pictures when I get back to school tomorrow.

 

[MNicolai]

You could look for a test switch for emergency lighting, which would probably be located near the dimmer racks. Otherwise, the EM lighting should come on when the main power feed is disconnected, but not necessarily just if the dimmer racks are shut down.

Our setup is that we can not only test our ELTS using a keyswitch, but also with the fire alarm system. If the fire alarm is tripped, the strobes and sirens start going off, the automated doors to the scene shop start shutting, and the emergency lighting comes on.

It is possible that something beyond your control is required to trip them. This could be a switch or controller near the battery backup. If that's the case and you feel it important to test them, then you're best bet would be to ask someone on your building and grounds crew, particularly the electrician if you have one. Before you start undermining your electrician's or grounds' crews responsibilities, take a moment to be mindful that they could be totally on top of it, but don't like people second guessing them. Basically, check, but be diplomatic about it. It's also completely possible that they have a misunderstanding (or proper understanding, for that matter), that it is not their responsibility to examine that stuff. When our existing electrician was hired, he had no idea about some of the needs for our drama dept., but now that him and I have gone through everything, I'm confident he's keeping a close eye on it and that he could step in at any moment to troubleshoot problems in dimmer racks or the lighting system. In short, you want to make sure everyone is on the same page.

Unlike before, now there's a stable process for anything. For example, we got the entire grounds crew together before we used our fogger for the first time in our new venue. That way we could test that it wouldn't trigger the FA system, and also could bounce ideas off of each other on how to create the worst case scenario, so that we make sure we trigger any false alarms and have the fire dept. at our doorstep. It's great, because now everyone knows that we did a thorough check, and nobody will be asking us to prove to them that we checked it already.

I've begun to notice the pattern that as far as schools are concerned, it's often a very shady handoff between what the theatre staff is responsible for (if they even exist, sometimes this is just a drama dept. head, or music dept. head), and what the building and grounds crew is responsible for.

 

[renegadeblack]

You could look for a test switch for emergency lighting, which would probably be located near the dimmer racks. Otherwise, the EM lighting should come on when the main power feed is disconnected, but not necessarily just if the dimmer racks are shut down.

Our setup is that we can not only test our ELTS using a keyswitch, but also with the fire alarm system. If the fire alarm is tripped, the strobes and sirens start going off, the automated doors to the scene shop start shutting, and the emergency lighting comes on.

It is possible that something beyond your control is required to trip them. This could be a switch or controller near the battery backup. If that's the case and you feel it important to test them, then you're best bet would be to ask someone on your building and grounds crew, particularly the electrician if you have one. Before you start undermining your electrician's or grounds' crews responsibilities, take a moment to be mindful that they could be totally on top of it, but don't like people second guessing them. Basically, check, but be diplomatic about it. It's also completely possible that they have a misunderstanding (or proper understanding, for that matter), that it is not their responsibility to examine that stuff. When our existing electrician was hired, he had no idea about some of the needs for our drama dept., but now that him and I have gone through everything, I'm confident he's keeping a close eye on it and that he could step in at any moment to troubleshoot problems in dimmer racks or the lighting system. In short, you want to make sure everyone is on the same page.

Unlike before, now there's a stable process for anything. For example, we got the entire grounds crew together before we used our fogger for the first time in our new venue. That way we could test that it wouldn't trigger the FA system, and also could bounce ideas off of each other on how to create the worst case scenario, so that we make sure we trigger any false alarms and have the fire dept. at our doorstep. It's great, because now everyone knows that we did a thorough check, and nobody will be asking us to prove to them that we checked it already.

I've begun to notice the pattern that as far as schools are concerned, it's often a very shady handoff between what the theatre staff is responsible for (if they even exist, sometimes this is just a drama dept. head, or music dept. head), and what the building and grounds crew is responsible for.

There is a test button on the two relays that switch over to emergency power and all that those actually do is switch the power over to what I would assume should be live from the batteries. When it's pressed, it switches the relay, but all that happens is that the lights go out. We are trying to establish communication with our building and grounds crew, but they seem to not like to be asked to do stuff. When we asked them to replace the burnt out lamps, they replaced half of them with CFLs and the others that are in the ceiling, they said that they don't know which should be on so they didn't replace any of them. I'll take pictures and draw a diagram tomorrow to explain it all.

 

[MNicolai]

"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

Yea, that sounds about the average building and grounds crew. The truth of the matter is that they aren't theatre people, so they don't know that the house lights have to be dimmable. (And therefore can't be CFL's, as if that was the only reason not to use CFL's for house lighting.) If you haven't already, you will quickly learn that sometimes you will need to broadcast your requests clear and as specific as is possible, because they aren't used to the way that theatres are run.

 

[beachcombah15]

"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

Yea, that sounds about the average building and grounds crew. The truth of the matter is that they aren't theatre people, so they don't know that the house lights have to be dimmable. (And therefore can't be CFL's, as if that was the only reason not to use CFL's for house lighting.) If you haven't already, you will quickly learn that sometimes you will need to broadcast your requests clear and as specific as is possible, because they aren't used to the way that theatres are run.

HAHAHAHA. Dimmable houselights...who has ever heard of those. The new thing that everyones trying is NON DIMMABLE FLUORESCENTS! At least thats the case at my school... during the summer of 2007, in order to be "energy efficient" our principal demanded that the new house lights that were put in were to be the cheapest possible in the long run! so we end up with fluorescents that turn go out when below 50%. and then take about 5 minutes to warm up to full strength.

The only luxury of this is that at least i get a slow fade up when i turn them on after a performance, without having to program a thing!

 

[renegadeblack]

These are the pictures of the equipment that we have for emergency lighting. Make of it what you want. What I do know is that the two big things in the basement (well, atleast one of them) are the power source for the lights in the house. Any ideas? I tried pressing the test button on the relays today to no success.

EDIT: A link to the pictures would probably be desired
http://www.flickr.com/photos/involutaryhaxor/sets/72157612212266700/

 

[Les]

Man that is a huge ballast/transformer on that table! I'll bet it weighs a ton if it is as big as it looks. End hijack.

 

[renegadeblack]

Man that is a huge ballast/transformer on that table! I'll bet it weighs a ton if it is as big as it looks. End hijack.

I'm fairly certain that that's a transformer. It's been there for as long as I can remember. Down there is where all of the T1 comes into the school for the internet as well as the phone system. As well as one of the many access points to the tunnel system underneath part of the school

 

[SteveB]

I'm fairly certain that that's a transformer. It's been there for as long as I can remember. Down there is where all of the T1 comes into the school for the internet as well as the phone system. As well as one of the many access points to the tunnel system underneath part of the school

If the T1 and internet is down there, you might have some un-interuptable power supplies (UPS) for the TelCom system, which would be unrelated to your emergency system. I know our ELTS system, which is for a 3000 amp building service, only has assorted circuit panels that power certain systems, as well as annunciator panels for generator status.

I'm the head elec. and LD for our facility, 27 years here and I DO NOT TOUCH THIS STUFF !. If I were in your shoes I would not be attempting to get fixed whatever is broken, by starting relays, etc... I would simply inform the powers-that-be that something is wrong, put it in writing, keeping a copy to give to the local newspaper after the disaster, and await more knowledgeable folks to come and fix.

In general, it sounds like you have a theatrical control system as well as an architectural control system that reside side-by-side, thus your comment "We have no architectural system whatsoever, all we have is the rack - We have entry buttons by all the doors that turn on lights on the rack that go through a remembrance board that is smashed to bits (scenery)."

That sounds like an "architectural" system to control house lighting as well as any lighting you want the stupid people to control, without having to operate the stage lighting controllers.

It is common to have all this stuff in a dimmer rack as either one of 3 things can be configured to allow for emergency lighting.

A) Key circuits coming off the dimmer rack can be routed thru a branch circuit emergency relay panel.

B) The entire dimmer rack can be powered thru a relay that senses loss of service and transfers over to generator. Not likely in your situation as it's generally only done for smaller dimmer systems.

C) You can have stand-alone flood fixtures throughout the theater that get energized off the generator.

The code only requires that lighting be provided and allows for certain types of transfer. If C is what 'ya got, then there is no transfer system as the house lighting, work lighting is all considered "performance" lighting and is not dealt with. If A is what you have, then there's probably a panel that interrupts certain branch circuits coming off the C-Tran rack to allow those circuits to get powered from the geni.

In any event, what you want to do is 1) Get the Remberance system fixed. 2) Get the system configured so that it times out after certain people who have the codes/permission, turn stuff on. A decent architectural system allows for this.

I'd be calling Litetrol Service, in Hicksville, NY, and who are the wiz;s at Colortran and who (more importantly) have parts to fix Colortran. They can either fix, modify if possible and if not, recommend and install an ETC Unison system that will fix all your problems.

FWIW, the C-Tran dimmer rack doesn't allow 2 universes (of DMX) as it's only 96 dimmers. What you mean is it has 2 DMX inputs, one from primarily theatrical console, the other for a separate console or an architectural system to simultaneously control the system. Sometimes, the primary theatrical control is routed thru the architectural system to allow the theatrical control to generate a "picture" that can be snapshot-ed by the architectural control, thus freeing the 2nd DMX input to the rack to allow a 3rd control (visiting theater company with their own console ?).

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College



As to the OP,