Yamaha TF/Tio Mixers

KBToys82

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So I'm thinking about dumping my PreSonus 32.4.2 AI and RML32 mixers and going to the Yamaha mixers.

Currently my 32.4.2 is located in the sound booth and that communicates with the BOH rack containing the RML32 which goes out to the amps and speakers in the auditorium.

I read a review on Sweetwater about the Tio that even though it is designed to work with the mixer, you can control it independently with Yamaha's Remote software. (I'm guessing he means StageMix?)

I've read almost every document and watched most Yamaha videos about the product and that has never once been mentioned. Does anyone know if this is the case?

When other groups use our system for basic speaking and just turn on the system, we can't have it so that someone will have to be in the sound booth, because that person would be me and I'm not always coming in if I don't have to.

I know the TF rack can run independently, but with the Dante card, that is an extra $1000 more than the Tio.
 

MNicolai

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Look at an M32 or X32.

Yamaha made the TF because Behringer forced their hand and they needed to offer something at the X32 price point or cede that sub-32 channel prosumer market to Behringer entirely. Aside from offering Dante if you absolutely need it, there's not much that pushes the TF to be a great console. The QL lineup the other hand is bulletproof --- but at the TF/X32 price point Behringer has several magnitudes more market volume compared to anyone else's similarly priced products. It is a much more polished product intended to be a flagship for Behringer -- where the TF is a "we had no choice" decision by Yamaha.

Don't get me wrong, the TF is capable for basic mixing, but the user interface and workflow is not smooth and intuitive. Not that I love the interfaces for the M32 and X32 consoles, but Midas/Behringer at least put some good thought and effort into those products with some understandable compromises to keep it low cost. Wouldn't really want to mix a full musical with a bunch of wireless on those if I could avoid it, but there are plenty of other redeeming qualities that make up for that.
 

KBToys82

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A major concern I have for the X32 is the age. It's now 7+ years old and with the release of the Wing, to me it's a sign that Behringer wants to move on and probably make an update of the X32 series soon. I was already burned on the PreSonus purchase with the S32 being announced very shortly after I bought both of the mixers, I'd really not like that to happen again.

At least the TF3 is only 4 years old. Also, while it's been some time since I looked at videos of the X32 software, it does seem that the Yamaha series is more friendlier to users, especially newbies in my school that I will have to train to use. While I definitely like the X32's price point over the TF3 ($1,300 is nothing to laugh) it does have more faders then the TF3. The Yamaha mixers seem to have more of a hold in the world of marching audio, where this new mixer may get used or with a purchase of a 2nd mixer.


So, does anyone know about the Tio which I would prefer since the cost, or would I have to get a TF rack for more $ plus the Dante card that isn't included. I know it has a resume setting using the dip switches, but I'd like to be able to control it without the mixer.
 

TimMc

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Feb 15, 2017
A major concern I have for the X32 is the age. It's now 7+ years old and with the release of the Wing, to me it's a sign that Behringer wants to move on and probably make an update of the X32 series soon. I was already burned on the PreSonus purchase with the S32 being announced very shortly after I bought both of the mixers, I'd really not like that to happen again.

At least the TF3 is only 4 years old. Also, while it's been some time since I looked at videos of the X32 software, it does seem that the Yamaha series is more friendlier to users, especially newbies in my school that I will have to train to use. While I definitely like the X32's price point over the TF3 ($1,300 is nothing to laugh) it does have more faders then the TF3. The Yamaha mixers seem to have more of a hold in the world of marching audio, where this new mixer may get used or with a purchase of a 2nd mixer.


So, does anyone know about the Tio which I would prefer since the cost, or would I have to get a TF rack for more $ plus the Dante card that isn't included. I know it has a resume setting using the dip switches, but I'd like to be able to control it without the mixer.
Behringer/Midas just released firmware V4.x for the *32 mixers. If they were going to EOL it, I doubt they'd have bothered. USA MAP for the Wing is $3,495. You still need i/o, at least S32 or DL32, so it's considerably more $ than the *32 mixers. I don't seen Uli ceding the <$3k segment and both mixers will exist together. That they can share some common infrastructure adds an upgrade path.
 

MNicolai

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The Tio is just a digital stage box for collecting inputs, spitting out outputs and transmitting channels over Dante. Any control you get from Yamaha's remote software will just be for head amp control (gain, phantom, maybe polarity). It's not going to offer any mixing or processing features. In that application, you would indeed need the TF rack.

As for The Wing, my understanding is that it's a higher feature set and channel count than the X32. Unless they are also eventually releasing a smaller version of it, I don't see a more expensive 48 channel desk replacing the X32 in the product lineup. For that matter, with no ship date announced, I expect it'll be another 9-12 months before the console is shipping.

If you're worried about longevity, you could pay a little more for an M32. Midas announced a year or two ago that they would be offering 5 year warranties. Either way, I don't think it's an exaggeration to estimate that the X32 is probably the most widely sold console in the world right now. With so many of them out there in the wild, I can't imagine Behringer giving up on that product lineup and leaving you SOL. It will eventually be replaced as all products are, but I'm sure there will continue to be support for it.

I would at least recommend getting a demo of a TF console before making a purchase. I think you'll discover it's kind of a clunky console to get around in. Feels like Yamaha was holding the TF back pretty far to avoid it cutting into their QL sales. The Yamaha brand is known for reliability and while I appreciate that, it's not my highest priority when looking at $2500 mix consoles. At that price, the console is almost one of the cheapest items in the overall sound system and after 5-6 years on a 32 channel frame, there's a good chance people are going to have other reasons for wanting to upgrade. Having a console that's going to last 10 years but could suck to use all of those 10 years is like the worst of both worlds.
 

KBToys82

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NJ
Thanks for the advice, I will definitely look more at the Behringer videos to see how the user interface works and get a demo.
 

robmerow

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Behringer just announced their successor to the X32. The Wing ships in January - lots of new features.
The Yamaha TF is definitely a "dumbed down" console, with many basic features intentionally omitted in the interest of tailoring to users inexperienced with mixing.
While not perfect, the Beheringer (and others like A&H) design to give as much bang as could possibly be achieved for less buck for even experienced users.
 

TimMc

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Feb 15, 2017
The Tio is just a digital stage box for collecting inputs, spitting out outputs and transmitting channels over Dante. Any control you get from Yamaha's remote software will just be for head amp control (gain, phantom, maybe polarity). It's not going to offer any mixing or processing features. In that application, you would indeed need the TF rack.

As for The Wing, my understanding is that it's a higher feature set and channel count than the X32. Unless they are also eventually releasing a smaller version of it, I don't see a more expensive 48 channel desk replacing the X32 in the product lineup. For that matter, with no ship date announced, I expect it'll be another 9-12 months before the console is shipping.

If you're worried about longevity, you could pay a little more for an M32. Midas announced a year or two ago that they would be offering 5 year warranties. Either way, I don't think it's an exaggeration to estimate that the X32 is probably the most widely sold console in the world right now. With so many of them out there in the wild, I can't imagine Behringer giving up on that product lineup and leaving you SOL. It will eventually be replaced as all products are, but I'm sure there will continue to be support for it.

I would at least recommend getting a demo of a TF console before making a purchase. I think you'll discover it's kind of a clunky console to get around in. Feels like Yamaha was holding the TF back pretty far to avoid it cutting into their QL sales. The Yamaha brand is known for reliability and while I appreciate that, it's not my highest priority when looking at $2500 mix consoles. At that price, the console is almost one of the cheapest items in the overall sound system and after 5-6 years on a 32 channel frame, there's a good chance people are going to have other reasons for wanting to upgrade. Having a console that's going to last 10 years but could suck to use all of those 10 years is like the worst of both worlds.
Mike, Thomann USA and Sweetwater show shipping before 12/31/19. Music Group/Tribe/whatever have been fielding prototypes for at least 3 months according to my sources and the first production run is happening now. Market position? This fits between the *32 series and the Midas Heritage D, with the Wing being well below the Midas. The most interesting thing about this is all buses and inputs are stereo. 40 stereo inputs, 16 stereo outputs. There is significant discussion of the Wing in the Live Audio Board Lounge forum:

Edit ps: USA MAP is ~$3500, plus i/o modules and accessories, so you're looking at around $6k5 if starting from scratch
 
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josh88

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I personally hate the TF series mixers and I'm a big fan of Yamaha. But if you've used a ql or cl, the TF is terrible in comparison. With the new update to the x/m32 it has a new life for awhile, AND they still have some advantages over the new Wing, in that they've got all their analog inputs and outputs. That being said I do also really like A&H's SQ and QU lines. Really intuitive, nice workflow and layout, they should be considered in this range too. If you can't get the budget up to afford a QL, my choices would be between the x/m32 and the SQ/QU.
 

steine

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I ended up with a SQ5 + stagebox, simply because I then got 40 inputs for less than the QL1 alone.

And I have been using Yamaha digital consoles since the O3D, I love the Yamaha but for the prize point I went with the SQ.
(still using LS9 and CL5 for larger musicals)
 

MarkV

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Dec 10, 2019
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I ended up with a SQ5 + stagebox, simply because I then got 40 inputs for less than the QL1 alone.

And I have been using Yamaha digital consoles since the O3D, I love the Yamaha but for the prize point I went with the SQ.
(still using LS9 and CL5 for larger musicals)
Any thoughts you'd care to share about that SQ5? I'm currently in the market, looking to replace my 01v96 with something a little more user-friendly. Hoping to find that sweet spot between something quick and easy to program and dial in for small live band set-ups, and something that might have enough expandability to stretch and do a small, fully produced musical. Other than the X/M32, the SQ5 seems to be the closest thing. The lack of good recall safe parameters is a little concerning (especially for DCA programming), but the fact that it has DCA's in the first place is a bonus over the 01V, or an LS9 for that matter. And it seems like it has good routing capabilities, a decent iPad app and offline editor, custom layers, digital stage box integration, Dante expandability, USB that carries audio and MIDI, among some other bells & whistles, which makes me think it might do just as well as, say, an LS9 on a musical. You've mentioned that you still use an LS9 for larger musicals - what functionality specifically do you find the LS9 has over the SQ5 that makes it better for musicals? Of course we'd all take a CL5, but even a QL1 is beyond my price point! Any thoughts most welcome.
 

Jay Ashworth

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St Pete FL USA
I was going to mention the firmware update on the X32 as well.

It also speaks OSC, I think, so you can set up a remote on a tablet with TouchOSC that gives people only the control you want them to have.

The SQ series is well thought of in its Facebook group, but speaks only MIDI, not OSC, making that a bit harder, I think.
 

FMEng

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Ok, I'm seeing "this month", "next month", and "9-12 months" on the Wing; who's right? :)
Behringer has publicly stated the Wing comes out in January. Some dealers are already taking orders for them. But, it'll take some time to ramp up production and fill the pre-orders, so it could be a few months before they are readily available.
 

steine

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Any thoughts you'd care to share about that SQ5? I'm currently in the market, looking to replace my 01v96 with something a little more user-friendly. Hoping to find that sweet spot between something quick and easy to program and dial in for small live band set-ups, and something that might have enough expandability to stretch and do a small, fully produced musical. Other than the X/M32, the SQ5 seems to be the closest thing. The lack of good recall safe parameters is a little concerning (especially for DCA programming), but the fact that it has DCA's in the first place is a bonus over the 01V, or an LS9 for that matter. And it seems like it has good routing capabilities, a decent iPad app and offline editor, custom layers, digital stage box integration, Dante expandability, USB that carries audio and MIDI, among some other bells & whistles, which makes me think it might do just as well as, say, an LS9 on a musical. You've mentioned that you still use an LS9 for larger musicals - what functionality specifically do you find the LS9 has over the SQ5 that makes it better for musicals? Of course we'd all take a CL5, but even a QL1 is beyond my price point! Any thoughts most welcome.
I choose the SQ5 to replace ny trusted LS9/16, due to a few reasons.
If I wanted a digital snake I would only get 16 inputs on the LS9, and still have to use an analog for the other 16 inputs if I needed them on stage.
And I would need to use R-Remote on a laptop to control gain/pad/phantom power.

Sadly the QL1 was outside my range, so opted for the SQ5 after playing with it as well as seeing the SQ6 in action for a few shows.

I wanted a console with at least 32 inputs possible, all via digital snake, with DCA faders and an easy costum-fader layout.
And in a pricerange I could afford. ;)

The SQ5 + AR2412 has met all those requirements and more.
(had to go for the AR2412 due to price, but two regular bands I run need 21 inputs on stage so either the 2412 or two DX/AB168)

Something I tend to use often on smaller gigs with several bands are scenes to change the setup of user layer F.
Each band will have the faders needed on that layer.

As for the LS9 for musicals, we talk a "semi pro" amateur ensemble, once a year we do a larger musical using a rented CL5, but each autum we do a kids/youth musical on the venues LS9/32
I use that instead of the SQ due to a need for 60-64 channels.

This year though I used the SQ5 for the orchester mix, and connected that to the LS9 via Dante, then had the wireless + choir on the LS9
(and used Dante to get monitor/talkback/MP monitor etc between the consoles with no latency)

-sorry for slight wall of text ;)