Control/Dimming Console for odd situation...

[tk2k]

Updated: DMX Distribution Question on page 2


New Question on Page 2

Hey Everybody,

I'm looking for recommendations on a console for a bit of a strange multifunction space on a relatively low budget. It's a mix of basic theater, speakers, club, and band.

The space consists of two studio rooms (think smallish blackboxes) separated by a divider that can be opened. Both spaces never need direct operation simultaneously (one with parked lights up, the other with a basic theater performance), but may be operated individually. There is a load-in stage for bands and the like. The real oddity of this room is someone installed a Source Four Revolution directly between the two grids, so I need to be able to manipulate that.

Fixtures:
1 Source 4 Revolution
20 LED colorblast units (3 ch per unit, 60 ch total)
16 conventional lights (ERS, Pars)
6 balcklight units (could be patched into 2 groups)

I need the ability to run live as well as program chases (which would require control over each LED) as well as a way of controlling the revolution that is at least as tolerable as on an ETC Express.

I'm quite partial to ETC consoles, and totally fine with buying something used, but I feel an express 48/96 is overkill for the space, while a Smartfade ML might not be the best solution ether...
Budget is about 3k, ideally less but that seems to be our topout.

Thanks

 

[Morpheus]

express 250 (or 125) is a nice little guy, same basic functionality of the express 48/96... just with 250 control channels (or 125) and no channel faders, just 24 subs.

 

[Footer]

You might be in the right ball park for a PC based console w/ a wing. Magic Q would be my first bet, it has a great effects package. I have used it with color blasts and it is nice and fast. It would handle the revolution just fine. I would stay away from anything that is not the current generation of consoles (such as the express, 520i, etc...) because they don't deal with LED's as well as the newer consoles. I would really look a the Maqic Q with the PC wing and a touchsmart computer. That setup should be able to control your rig nicely and make your life a bit easier. Life with LED's before color pickers was no life at all.

 

[tk2k]

You might be in the right ball park for a PC based console w/ a wing. Magic Q would be my first bet, it has a great effects package. I have used it with color blasts and it is nice and fast. It would handle the revolution just fine. I would stay away from anything that is not the current generation of consoles (such as the express, 520i, etc...) because they don't deal with LED's as well as the newer consoles. I would really look a the Maqic Q with the PC wing and a touchsmart computer. That setup should be able to control your rig nicely and make your life a bit easier. Life with LED's before color pickers was no life at all.

I'm pretty strongly against computer-based consoles, especially for this situation where it'd be exposed to a lot of different users over the years.

 

[icewolf08]

As usual I will remind everyone that the Express is a discontinued product. Sure, you can get them used, but if you need to control things like LEDs and a moving light, you will hate yourself for getting a console that is not designed to work with products like that. If you are looking for a console based solution and not a computer then you might look at the ETC Element or the Strand Palette series. If you want to go used you might look for some used Hogs.

 

[tk2k]

As usual I will remind everyone that the Express is a discontinued product. Sure, you can get them used, but if you need to control things like LEDs and a moving light, you will hate yourself for getting a console that is not designed to work with products like that. If you are looking for a console based solution and not a computer then you might look at the ETC Element or the Strand Palette series. If you want to go used you might look for some used Hogs.

I believe an Element is about 5-6k which is outside of my budget. An element would be fantastic, but it's almost twice our budget..

 

[icewolf08]

I believe an Element is about 5-6k which is outside of my budget. An element would be fantastic, but it's almost twice our budget..

As with any new console purchase you need to call your local dealers and get a quote. I believe that you will find Element to be a little more affordable than you think as we have heard people being quoted in the $5-6K range for the basic Ion.

The other concern that you have to think about is future-proofing. If you are going to invest in a console, you don't want to invest in something that won't grow with you. Express is done, you already own gear that is cumbersome to use with Express. What happens when you decide to get new gear in a few years, add some MLs or more LEDs? you might find that you are forced to get a new console as well.

Just some things to keep in mind.

 

[xander]

I'm quite partial to ETC consoles, and totally fine with buying something used, but I feel an express 48/96 is overkill for the space, while a Smartfade ML might not be the best solution ether...
Budget is about 3k, ideally less but that seems to be our topout.

I am wondering why you think the "Smartfade ML might not be the best solution either?" I have not run a Smartfade before, but from reading its literature it seems to me that you are the demographic that it was created for.

If you like ETC, the Smartfade is pretty much your only choice. Like others have said, I think the Express would be a very bad idea. Just running the Revolution and LED chases will be a bit cumbersome. Why hinder yourself like that right off the back, not to mention any future investments you may make. If you had an Express, yes you could easily make do, but why buy one when you could buy something that better fits your needs? If you are opposed to the Smartfade, the Element would be an excellent choice. It will cost more, but it will also future proof you for a while.

As with all of the "help me find a new board" threads, I recommend that you go to your local dealer of choice and try the boards out. See which fits your needs and your style. It is a serious investment. You don't buy a car without test driving it.

My $.02
-Tim

 

[lieperjp]

I am wondering why you think the "Smartfade ML might not be the best solution either?" I have not run a Smartfade before, but from reading its literature it seems to me that you are the demographic that it was created for.

If you like ETC, the Smartfade is pretty much your only choice. Like others have said, I think the Express would be a very bad idea. Just running the Revolution and LED chases will be a bit cumbersome. Why hinder yourself like that right off the back, not to mention any future investments you may make. If you had an Express, yes you could easily make do, but why buy one when you could buy something that better fits your needs? If you are opposed to the Smartfade, the Element would be an excellent choice. It will cost more, but it will also future proof you for a while.

As with all of the "help me find a new board" threads, I recommend that you go to your local dealer of choice and try the boards out. See which fits your needs and your style. It is a serious investment. You don't buy a car without test driving it.

My $.02
-Tim

I agree with Tim. I don't understand why people are so quick to overlook the SmartFade. Coming from someone who uses a SmartFade 24/96 (note: not ML) I don't really see what all the fuss is about. Is it as intuitive as a larger theatre board such as an Element? No. But it works really well. I had a demo of one at ETC the summer it came out (I believe I was a Junior in High School...) I had never even seen a moving light before, and with the twenty minute intro speech I was able to use the SmartFade ML to get the lights in ETC's demo space to do what I wanted them to. (I think it was hooked up to 2 Revs and 8 Pars...) Especially with the SmartSoft software, the SmartFade is a good choice. Like Tim said: If you're unsure, have your local supplier hook you up with a demo and a loaner unit to see if you can use it. It is definitely in your price range and fairly durable.

Afterthought: The biggest thing most people have against the SmartFade is the somewhat confusing way cues are set up. I'll admit, programming cues without the SmartSoft software is a big pain - the SmartFades biggest design flaw, in my opinion. But with the SmartSoft software it really isn't hard at all to use the cue stack feature or program moving light points and effects.

 

[GreyWyvern]

I agree with Tim. I don't understand why people are so quick to overlook the SmartFade. Coming from someone who uses a SmartFade 24/96 (note: not ML) I don't really see what all the fuss is about. Is it as intuitive as a larger theatre board such as an Element? No. But it works really well. I had a demo of one at ETC the summer it came out (I believe I was a Junior in High School...) I had never even seen a moving light before, and with the twenty minute intro speech I was able to use the SmartFade ML to get the lights in ETC's demo space to do what I wanted them to. (I think it was hooked up to 2 Revs and 8 Pars...) Especially with the SmartSoft software, the SmartFade is a good choice. Like Tim said: If you're unsure, have your local supplier hook you up with a demo and a loaner unit to see if you can use it. It is definitely in your price range and fairly durable.

Afterthought: The biggest thing most people have against the SmartFade is the somewhat confusing way cues are set up. I'll admit, programming cues without the SmartSoft software is a big pain - the SmartFades biggest design flaw, in my opinion. But with the SmartSoft software it really isn't hard at all to use the cue stack feature or program moving light points and effects.

That was odd, I hit quote and suddenly there was more to your post!

Anyway, your afterthought edit kind of sums up what I was going to say. I totally agree with all your points. I use a 12/48 here at work as my testing console. It is quite difficult to work with if not used with the software. SmartSoft makes everything that would otherwise be a PITA, much easier and I would say it is operates more like any other slightly larger console. Personally, I would not want a SmartFade without a computer dedicated to running SmartSoft. I am putting an ML in a spec I am writing for my church for a lighting upgrade and am including the cost of building a computer that just meets the requirements of the software and an inexpensive little monitor.

 

[tk2k]

DMX Distribution Question

Hey Everybody,

Long story short, i'm a college student hired to do lighting work for the new campus center, but no one on campus knows how the existing system is wired, or how to use it, or anything about it really. This will be relevant in the last paragraph.

I'm setting up a room with a divider (think 2 studios that can be combined) so I need the ability to run lights from each room (not at the same time, but I need to be able to plug in in ether room). Normally I'd just run two universes, however they need to function as one unified system when the divider is open. Each room as two grids, so when the divider is open there's 4 grids. Now, running one straight run I would so something like this, all with 5pin

Console port on the wall > Smartbar grid 1 (6) > LED Power Supply (colorblast units, psu handles dmx for them) > Source 4 Revolution > Smartbar grid 2 (4) > Other room's grid 1 > other room's grid 2 > LED powers supply for room 2

I'm thinking I could cut down on cable with an opto splitter, found 5 pin 5 out ETC splitter for about $400... Or would you guys recommend something else? But a merger is expensive, I'm wondering how I should allow for control from room 1 or room 2.

We have an existing Lumanet system running back to a leviton architectural control system which runs to a bunch of Creston touch screens across the area, I'm thinking I could use the lumanet possibly to allow for control from 2 areas? This last part is something I've never done before.

 

[tk2k]

Re: DMX Distribution Question

Anyone have some advice?

 

[SHARYNF]

An opto splitter would work if you are willing to do a bit of physical plugging, Just run two dmx cables to the splitter input and just plug in one at a time.
I am assuming that the devices/dimmer addresses are different for each room so that when the dividers are open all addresses are being used

It is possible to also do a bit of an odd deal and to the following

If you had a cable in location 1 which was a xlr male plugged into the output of the console and then ran that cable to the second location and had basically a y cable there that plugged in to the feed from location 1 (a male) and another male that you plugged into the console and a female that you plugged into the cable going to your dmx lines to the dimmers this would also work

Yes it is a y cable, but as long as you only plug in one console and do not have any devices between the two consoles it will work. IN essence it is like a hard wired dmx in and out on a device. You can NOT plug a console into both locations at the same time. Again this will ONLY work if only one console is connected at the same time

If you are handy with a soldering iron and are willing to build something you COULD look at this merger. I have no personal experience with this but it looks like it would work

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270482621835&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Sharyn

 

[Tracyu]

Re: DMX Distribution Question

Hey Everybody,

Long story short, i'm a college student hired to do lighting work for the new campus center, but no one on campus knows how the existing system is wired, or how to use it, or anything about it really. This will be relevant in the last paragraph.

I'm setting up a room with a divider (think 2 studios that can be combined) so I need the ability to run lights from each room (not at the same time, but I need to be able to plug in in ether room). Normally I'd just run two universes, however they need to function as one unified system when the divider is open. Each room as two grids, so when the divider is open there's 4 grids. Now, running one straight run I would so something like this, all with 5pin

Console port on the wall > Smartbar grid 1 (6) > LED Power Supply (colorblast units, psu handles dmx for them) > Source 4 Revolution > Smartbar grid 2 (4) > Other room's grid 1 > other room's grid 2 > LED powers supply for room 2

I'm thinking I could cut down on cable with an opto splitter, found 5 pin 5 out ETC splitter for about $400... Or would you guys recommend something else? But a merger is expensive, I'm wondering how I should allow for control from room 1 or room 2.

We have an existing Lumanet system running back to a leviton architectural control system which runs to a bunch of Creston touch screens across the area, I'm thinking I could use the lumanet possibly to allow for control from 2 areas? This last part is something I've never done before.

As far as a console goes take a look at Zero88's Jester ML/TL range of consoles. They will work within your budget, been on the market for about 2 years now so most of the bugs are worked out. They are also opto-isolated on the DMX output which is a good thing when hooking up a lot of gear on a run.
As to your question on operating the system, I would recommend you work out (3) patches. Depending on what you are running load that patch into your console and giddy up.
A splitter will cut down on your cable runs. You should also take a look at the number of DMX devices you put on a single DMX run. The ANSI version of DMX says 32 unit loads. While that may not necessarily be 32 physical devices it's good practice to not put more than that on a run. You also need to make sure you have a DMX termination for the end device of each run of DMX cable. As along as all your DMX cables are up to spec. that should eliminate any random flickering of your lights.
Good luck with it!
Tracy

 

[mstaylor]

Re: DMX Distribution Question

You initially mentioned two universes, why did you discard that possiblity. You could run one room on one universe, the second on the second universe. When you use it open combined then you would have no repatch problems.

 

[shiben]

Re: DMX Distribution Question

You initially mentioned two universes, why did you discard that possiblity. You could run one room on one universe, the second on the second universe. When you use it open combined then you would have no repatch problems.

I agree. 2 Universes would at worse involve some funky addressing, but add so much flexibility, and if you needed to, you could work with 2 consoles with no issue, or 1 console controlling 2 spaces, or 1 console controlling 1 space. That seems the best idea, and probably would take the lease resources.