Deadhanging Advice?

thomp01d

thomp01d

Member
Hey y'all,

I just received a request from the administration of the simmer stock I'm gigging at to deadhang some additional battens. Here's the twist: the venue is 100+ years old with wooden beams instead of steel members. There is no grid, and the ceiling is vaulted and sheathed in OSB (I know, it's silly, don't look at me). The existing electrical rig is a pipe rig lagged into various places in the structure - also a jerry rig predating me. I can hang drape on strut safely, but I'm worried about rigging anything that will move or carry significant weight from wooden members. Renovation is out of the question, as is outsourcing to a qualified installer. The footprint is also tiny, which precludes box truss solutions.

I would appreciate suggestions on how to satisfy admin, complete the project and remain safety-compliant.
 
Tell them to hire a good lawyer. There going to need one.
Rigging should never be jury rigged. Find the money to hang it right or don't hang it at all.
 
I'm well aware of the negative impacts of improper rigging. I'm not interested in doing anything that is unsafe or exposes me or my employer to litigitous actions. One cannot however ignore financial realities. The purpose of my post was to seek context and ideas from others who have dealt with similar situations and have been successful in the safe, cost-effective implementation of their respective solutions.
 
the biggest issue is you definitely cannot hang from the ceiling without a load engineer coming in and making sure that it is going to be able to hold the additional forces. So your only options are from the floor, If there isn't enough room for box truss then that forces into another corner. I cannot feasibly suggest an option without first seeing the space the budget and a legal waver.
 
I see a couple of different questions being asked and, unfortunately there is not a good answer for either. If you are talking about hanging a couple extra drapes then Yeah, You could probably, safely throw a chain around a beam and rig from there. The addition of another 150 pounds is not going make the roof cave in. < if it were then it would cave in the first time a good stiff wind came along>. Can I or anyone else here tell you what the maxium safe load is or will be ? No. It sounds as if you aware of some of the "Best practices" necessary for the job but that perhaps you are looking for better advice. I don't think there is any to be garnered, on here. But I think you know that. The second question is the tricky one of the two and which appears to me to be a plea for justification which I also don't think you'll get here. You say the previously installed rigging points predated you, and that they are just lagged into beams. It might surprise you to know that quite often Pipe grids are suspended in similar ways. Can I suggst that you go out and build a DIY grid system? Not unless you want to go spend several years installing them first. There are ways to utilize your space. but you first need to be willing to say, "No" to your Admin. " No I will not compromise safety for monetary considerations" and " No, I can't just..." Have the confidence in yourself to know that if you think it's not safe it probably isn't. I know this probably isn't the answer you want, but I don't know that you'll get a better one without having someone show up and do an on site visit. I sure would not take the Liability of offering Custom rigging advice over the Interwebs for free, for a venue I've never seen.
 
Van,

Your answer is exactly what I've been saying to myself and everyone I've discussed this with. I guess I just hoped someone else was cooler than I and had thought of/invented better solutions for tiny venues. ( My experience has been in large venues with real budgets, so this a paradigm shift). I'm planning on requesting site visits and installation professionals submitting quotes, but have been under pressure for an in-house solution. Plea for justification is right.

Thanks,

Daniel
 
EEEsh, Thomp....you are in a lame situation. Allow me to further encourage you this way: you (and Van) know what's up, and you should keep on keepin' on down this path. Rig right, or die. (And all that other fuzzy stuff...)

:)
 
Rigging from wooden structures, in itself, is not necessarily a bad thing. Properly sized wood members in a properly designed and engineered structure can support incredible amounts of weight. Your problem is not the wood, but how to determine just what kind of load it will handle. Unfortunately no one can make that determination without either being on site and/or getting extremely precise measurements of the structure, the individual members, the method of fastening, the species of wood, the points where the load will be attached, the weight of the load, dynamic or static loading, the method of attaching the load...........! BTW, what is the planned load? I would hazard a guess it is for lights, but that isn't really clear. What is the anticipated load? How many pick points over what span?

These are the questions that need to be answered and answered by someone who is, as the various OSHA, BOCA and other regs say, a "Competent Person".

I'm sorry I don't have more specific advice, but without at least a few of the questions answered, I can't help, except to add to what others have said:
1. Know how to say "NO".
2. Don't rig or hang anything that you don't know absolutely, completely, positively, 110% sure, is safe and sound.
3. If you can't do #2, bite the bullet and get/pay someone who can. Someone who can make those calculations, determinations and decisions.
4. If you can't do at least 2 of the above, see #1.

I know the responses to your original question are starting to sound like a broken record, but that's the reality of the situation. What you are being asked to do is potentially very dangerous (which you know or you would not have made the OP).

Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions about this!
 
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Let's just say the existing rig looks like something out of JR Clancy's scary rigging photo of the week. I walked in and shuddered. My futile hope was not to walk into admin and tell them they needed a five to six figure installation, but as you've all assured me, that is a reality. Can't wait.
 
Without seeing the situation I can't say for sure, but there is a chance that your situation is not as grim as a "five to six figure installation". As MPowers pointed out wooden beams can hold a lot of weight. There are arena's out there that hang 60,000 pound shows from wooden ceilings. Despite this fact it sounds like you have questions about the existing rigging. It also sounds like your in a position where if you have questions about the rigging admin should pony up the cash to get those questions answered. If the rigging has been inspected after the current install but before you got there that would be good as you would know your current install is safe. If not it probably needs to be inspected anyway for safety and insurance reasons. If you have an inspector come in that would be a good time to ask some questions about the best way to add points as needed to the facility.
 
If it is determined that the wooden beams will carry the load you wish to hang, can you access them or do you need to remove the OSB?
 
I'm not sure if this helps or hurts, but I just lost a repeat set build gig because I quoted a price for safe engineering of a false proscenium. The producer chose to get it cheap from the guy who was willing to "Just do x. It'll probably be fine." 99 out of 100 it will be fine, but those odds are not good enough when life is on the line.
 
That's when you ask who is carrying the liability insurance, them or the "It will be OK,INC"
 
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