NC stage collapse
- Thread starterderekleffew
- Start date
techieman33
Well-Known Member
Looks that way to me.
Here is a link posted at Soundforums.net by someone with one of the acts.
Share your adventures with your friends realtime by Bart Millard (bartmillard) on Mobypicture
It shows a better side view after the collapse of the roof structure.
Share your adventures with your friends realtime by Bart Millard (bartmillard) on Mobypicture
It shows a better side view after the collapse of the roof structure.
masterelectrician2112
Active Member
porkchop
Well-Known Member
Here's another article with a direct quote that really bothers me:
South Carolina: Stage Collapse Forces Cancellation of MercyMe, Aaron Shust, The Afters Concerts
The quote that really bothers me is
“The World Series officials are all devastated, but in the end, it was safety first for the artists,” said Brittany Spangler, administrative assistant for the American Legion World Series. “We’re sad, but you can’t really stop Mother Nature. We weren’t aware that the winds were going to get that high.”
First, I know the quote is context sensitive, but how about safety first for the stagehands that had been working under that roof all day long and the audience that was going to be standing next to it in a few hours? Secondly the whole wind thing really gets at my nerves because the gust that toppled the roof seems to have been in the 35 - 40 mph range which I feel is well within the range that they should have planned for. I could go off for a while on this, but I'm going to stop here and be happy that no one go hurt.
South Carolina: Stage Collapse Forces Cancellation of MercyMe, Aaron Shust, The Afters Concerts
The quote that really bothers me is
“The World Series officials are all devastated, but in the end, it was safety first for the artists,” said Brittany Spangler, administrative assistant for the American Legion World Series. “We’re sad, but you can’t really stop Mother Nature. We weren’t aware that the winds were going to get that high.”
First, I know the quote is context sensitive, but how about safety first for the stagehands that had been working under that roof all day long and the audience that was going to be standing next to it in a few hours? Secondly the whole wind thing really gets at my nerves because the gust that toppled the roof seems to have been in the 35 - 40 mph range which I feel is well within the range that they should have planned for. I could go off for a while on this, but I'm going to stop here and be happy that no one go hurt.
Yet another Roof Collapse
We had 2 of these artists in our venue the day before. I cannot imagine how anyone is going to get insurance for outdoor festivals if this keeps up. I have had 3 festivals locally I work with have to switch insurance providers since these roofs are no being excluded from policies. The newer insurance is more difficult to come by and is substantially more for similar coverage.
It appears that the roof was supported only by crank towers and ratchet straps. There was another video on one of the bands Facebook page that offered better detail, but it was removed.
I am glad nobody was injured.
~Dave
We had 2 of these artists in our venue the day before. I cannot imagine how anyone is going to get insurance for outdoor festivals if this keeps up. I have had 3 festivals locally I work with have to switch insurance providers since these roofs are no being excluded from policies. The newer insurance is more difficult to come by and is substantially more for similar coverage.
It appears that the roof was supported only by crank towers and ratchet straps. There was another video on one of the bands Facebook page that offered better detail, but it was removed.
I am glad nobody was injured.
~Dave
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Re: Yet another Roof Collapse
More on the MercyMe/The Afters Cleveland County Fairgrounds Stage Roof Collapse
More on the MercyMe/The Afters Cleveland County Fairgrounds Stage Roof Collapse
Re: Yet another Roof Collapse
It would be interesting to know if the National Weather Service issued a watch or warning for that area prior to the accident. In my opinion, an outdoor venue needs to monitor NWS watches and warnings closely any time temporary structures are up.
This event puts the industry one step closer to what is really needed, which is the requirement for these structures to be erected and operated under the direct supervision of a licensed engineer. It has been well proven that current industry practices are unsafe and that states need to regulate this.
It would be interesting to know if the National Weather Service issued a watch or warning for that area prior to the accident. In my opinion, an outdoor venue needs to monitor NWS watches and warnings closely any time temporary structures are up.
This event puts the industry one step closer to what is really needed, which is the requirement for these structures to be erected and operated under the direct supervision of a licensed engineer. It has been well proven that current industry practices are unsafe and that states need to regulate this.
JohnHuntington
Well-Known Member
As far as I can tell, there was no warning in place for that show site (I addressed this in my blog which Derek linked above), but winds were only 35-40 which is below the severe thunderstorm threshold of 60... Another part of the same storm system to the north, though, did have a severe warning--I linked to it from the blog. Any decent stage roof should be able to tolerate 35-40...
John
John
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
Re: Yet another Roof Collapse
I don't feel that you need a licensed engineer, but definately some certification from truss roof manufactures to show you are competant enough to setup, operate and tear down the roof structure. The reason these things keep happening is people aren't using the right equipment. Its plain and simple. As I say time and time again its idiots that should be governed not the general populace that know actually what they are doing.
I don't feel that you need a licensed engineer, but definately some certification from truss roof manufactures to show you are competant enough to setup, operate and tear down the roof structure. The reason these things keep happening is people aren't using the right equipment. Its plain and simple. As I say time and time again its idiots that should be governed not the general populace that know actually what they are doing.
Re: Yet another Roof Collapse
It's really not that simple. Every structure erected gets used for different purposes that pose unique risks, and risks may be provoked into potentially dangerous scenarios by non-structural components that the truss manufacturers cannot account for.
Some structures are used for supporting lots of weight from above, others have side or roof panels of plastic added that are not always perforated for wind. Some are set up where earthquakes are more frequent.
The different uses for these structures aside, the person or entity responsible for overseeing the design and erection of the structure may or may not have the resources of a meteorologist afforded to them by the promoter. Their contracts may or may not give them the authority to shut down a performance during a potential weather event. If they shut down the event and the weather ends up not being an issue, they may be in a particularly good position to find themselves in a lawsuit for lost revenues or ticket refunds issued.
Figure that in these larger scenarios there are several parties that are significant financial stakeholders, each with different layers and levels of authority granted to them by their contracts.
The blatantly improper erection of a structure is one of the more egregious facets of this problem, but responsibly using the structures that are constructed safely also needs to be addressed. If the answer is that the structure built needs to be made of "the right equipment," expect to see more permanent outdoor structures suitable for all weather short of tornadoes and hurricanes. In the world of temporary structures, the "right equipment" is open to interpretation, and the grey areas of those interpretations are where these sorts of accidents occur.
It's really not that simple. Every structure erected gets used for different purposes that pose unique risks, and risks may be provoked into potentially dangerous scenarios by non-structural components that the truss manufacturers cannot account for.
Some structures are used for supporting lots of weight from above, others have side or roof panels of plastic added that are not always perforated for wind. Some are set up where earthquakes are more frequent.
The different uses for these structures aside, the person or entity responsible for overseeing the design and erection of the structure may or may not have the resources of a meteorologist afforded to them by the promoter. Their contracts may or may not give them the authority to shut down a performance during a potential weather event. If they shut down the event and the weather ends up not being an issue, they may be in a particularly good position to find themselves in a lawsuit for lost revenues or ticket refunds issued.
Figure that in these larger scenarios there are several parties that are significant financial stakeholders, each with different layers and levels of authority granted to them by their contracts.
The blatantly improper erection of a structure is one of the more egregious facets of this problem, but responsibly using the structures that are constructed safely also needs to be addressed. If the answer is that the structure built needs to be made of "the right equipment," expect to see more permanent outdoor structures suitable for all weather short of tornadoes and hurricanes. In the world of temporary structures, the "right equipment" is open to interpretation, and the grey areas of those interpretations are where these sorts of accidents occur.
porkchop
Well-Known Member
Re: Yet another Roof Collapse
This all runs into the lowest bidder gets the job as well. X county fair wants to have a concert. No one on the board of directors knows anything about entertainment so they hire the guy who says he can do it the cheapest assuming that all stages are created equal. Billy Bob shows up with equipment that looks like a stage to the people in charge and the people that are putting it together are usually paid just a little (a.k.a. not technicians) or volunteers so no one knows if it's good equipment being assembled properly or not.
Perhaps it's just me but government oversight just doesn't seem like the answer. I think requiring a structural engineer qualified to deal with outside venues will be too costly/hard to find for many events like this. What could work is an aggressively supported and advertised group of reasonably priced consultants that help things like county fairs to find companies that are going to make it a safe experience. Rather than just saying hire this company they know what they're doing, these consultants could help with things like building an emergency procedure plan and appointing people on site to have the authority to actually put the plan into motion. Two steps that are very often poorly done or overlooked completely.
I realized this is pretty far fetched, but I just don't see any good coming from the government coming in and trying to regulate our industry. Especially given the uniqueness of every singe production on every single different stage.
This all runs into the lowest bidder gets the job as well. X county fair wants to have a concert. No one on the board of directors knows anything about entertainment so they hire the guy who says he can do it the cheapest assuming that all stages are created equal. Billy Bob shows up with equipment that looks like a stage to the people in charge and the people that are putting it together are usually paid just a little (a.k.a. not technicians) or volunteers so no one knows if it's good equipment being assembled properly or not.
Perhaps it's just me but government oversight just doesn't seem like the answer. I think requiring a structural engineer qualified to deal with outside venues will be too costly/hard to find for many events like this. What could work is an aggressively supported and advertised group of reasonably priced consultants that help things like county fairs to find companies that are going to make it a safe experience. Rather than just saying hire this company they know what they're doing, these consultants could help with things like building an emergency procedure plan and appointing people on site to have the authority to actually put the plan into motion. Two steps that are very often poorly done or overlooked completely.
I realized this is pretty far fetched, but I just don't see any good coming from the government coming in and trying to regulate our industry. Especially given the uniqueness of every singe production on every single different stage.
Re: Yet another Roof Collapse
I agree that involving government is a lousy solution. However, history has repeatedly proven, it is the only solution that actually works most of the time when there is a balance between profit and safety.
Frankly, if the venue finds the regulations too complex or costly then the show doesn't need to happen. Nobody should lose their life attending a show. Nobody should lose their life working on a show.
I agree that involving government is a lousy solution. However, history has repeatedly proven, it is the only solution that actually works most of the time when there is a balance between profit and safety.
Frankly, if the venue finds the regulations too complex or costly then the show doesn't need to happen. Nobody should lose their life attending a show. Nobody should lose their life working on a show.
Re: Yet another Roof Collapse
One of the side effects of this type of stuff here in Illinois is that many municipalities are building outdoor shed stages to host these small shows/festivals. But they build them inadequately (no rigging points, no power, inadequate wind protection, etc.) and all that is left is a concrete deck with an aluminum roof. So the acts and local producers are bringing truss on genies and assuming that's a better solution.
One of the side effects of this type of stuff here in Illinois is that many municipalities are building outdoor shed stages to host these small shows/festivals. But they build them inadequately (no rigging points, no power, inadequate wind protection, etc.) and all that is left is a concrete deck with an aluminum roof. So the acts and local producers are bringing truss on genies and assuming that's a better solution.
Re: Yet another Roof Collapse
From Organizer blames stage collapse at Cleveland fairgrounds on bad weather | CharlotteObserver.com :
From Organizer blames stage collapse at Cleveland fairgrounds on bad weather | CharlotteObserver.com :
porkchop
Well-Known Member
The Production friends group on Facebook seems to be particularly unimpressed by L & N Productions. Their website (L & N Productions) is back up with several pictures proudly displayed of a similar if not identical roof system, build outside, with only very small outriggers and no visible guy wires. It looks like this company has been running with crank ups as an outdoor staging solution for a while. Just goes to show that just because it worked once (or even for the last 10-15 years) doesn't mean it's safe. You may have just been lucky.
Here is some more stuff from jimonlight:
Another Structure Falls – Stage Roof Made from Genie Towers Collapses in North Carolina | Jim On Light
A couple of even scarier pictures from the L & N website that Brett linked, the slide show on the home page shows a truss on genie's setting on a portable stage, how safe is that. There is also a pic of an outdoor roof supported by two genies on the back and one on each side with the front cantilevered out.
Another Structure Falls – Stage Roof Made from Genie Towers Collapses in North Carolina | Jim On Light
A couple of even scarier pictures from the L & N website that Brett linked, the slide show on the home page shows a truss on genie's setting on a portable stage, how safe is that. There is also a pic of an outdoor roof supported by two genies on the back and one on each side with the front cantilevered out.
I was reading some other articles that were on LN and the Genies were no ST25s, they were the Superlift Contractor style which should never be used for anything but lifting duct work on a construction site. L & N Productions Their website gives you better look at what they were using.
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