Alternative Methods of Cable Coiling?

[mstaylor]

I saw a company leave their feeder in the box, straight wrapped, after the road case got soaked in the rain on a previous gig. They pull about 15ft of a 100 ft feeder out and hooked it up, I was rigging so I didn't do the tap. All of a sudden we had smoke. It didn't catch fire but it heated the cable that started to burn off the wet foam. Not pretty! It was a simple matter of recoiling on the floor, but it did get the show guys' attention.

 

[FatherMurphy]

I've heard people claim that figure eighting both feeder and socapex lighting cables can reduce sound system buzz when it's not possible to transformer isolate them. Haven't had a chance to experiment to confirm/deny it, usually not enough time in the field to recoil an entire rig.

 

[mstaylor]

I doubt that seriously but the only way to prove it is to load-in several times in the same venue with the same gear. I have seen guys figure eight soco simply to be able to stack several cables deep and not have them become one.

 

[Psyd]

I've heard people claim that figure eighting both feeder and socapex lighting cables can reduce sound system buzz when it's not possible to transformer isolate them.

What you're doing with a figure eight is creating a giant capacitance, much in the same way that the twists in your mic and data cables does. Oddly, over-overing your cables will destroy that capacitance which is why we over-under them. The twists, especially in data, are remarkably important to the quality of the end signal. EVERY TIME you over-over your cable, and then pull it straight, you're changing that twist, ergo that capacitance.
Ever wonder how those multi cables and Edison cords that start life out straight end up looking like an old Ma Bell handset cord? Mistreatment, via over-overing them and pulling them out straight. Over-over introduces a twist into the cable; over-under does the same, but then unwinds that twist every other turn.
Over over clockwise is a leftover from the days of twisted hemp and manila. It's so you don't unlay a rope. If you're an anachronism on the deck, continue as you have been.
Today's modern technician is much more than a deck-hand hired as beef, he knows what the cables do, how they do it, an HOW TO KEEP THEM DOING THAT. Unless a cable is going to go on a reel, or maybe into a box and from the box straight into the air, the best way to preserve that cable is to over-under it.
And spend a second at the end of every wrap to make sure that the ends are not going to go through the loops. Poorly wrapped cable is a problem, and not paying attention to where the ends go is a definition of poorly wrapped. If they mate, mate 'em. It not only prevents knots, it prevents dust and dirt from getting into your delicate connections, and keeps the ends round and straight. Egg-shaped connectors are a drag. This solves a myriad of problems.
And for the OP, it doesn't matter how long you've been doing this, or who you've worked for, or what shows. If you've been doing it wrong all this time, it's still wrong. And yeah, even professors that used to be pros can make mistakes.

 

[gafftapegreenia]

I think I've gotten terms confused. I have no problems with figure 8'ing cable. Its the guys who sort of "zig zag" the cable back in forth in their hand and then tie that zig zag in a square knot.

 

[mstaylor]

What you're doing with a figure eight is creating a giant capacitance, much in the same way that the twists in your mic and data cables does. Oddly, over-overing your cables will destroy that capacitance which is why we over-under them. The twists, especially in data, are remarkably important to the quality of the end signal. EVERY TIME you over-over your cable, and then pull it straight, you're changing that twist, ergo that capacitance.
Ever wonder how those multi cables and Edison cords that start life out straight end up looking like an old Ma Bell handset cord? Mistreatment, via over-overing them and pulling them out straight. Over-over introduces a twist into the cable; over-under does the same, but then unwinds that twist every other turn.
Over over clockwise is a leftover from the days of twisted hemp and manila. It's so you don't unlay a rope. If you're an anachronism on the deck, continue as you have been.
Today's modern technician is much more than a deck-hand hired as beef, he knows what the cables do, how they do it, an HOW TO KEEP THEM DOING THAT. Unless a cable is going to go on a reel, or maybe into a box and from the box straight into the air, the best way to preserve that cable is to over-under it.
And spend a second at the end of every wrap to make sure that the ends are not going to go through the loops. Poorly wrapped cable is a problem, and not paying attention to where the ends go is a definition of poorly wrapped. If they mate, mate 'em. It not only prevents knots, it prevents dust and dirt from getting into your delicate connections, and keeps the ends round and straight. Egg-shaped connectors are a drag. This solves a myriad of problems.
And for the OP, it doesn't matter how long you've been doing this, or who you've worked for, or what shows. If you've been doing it wrong all this time, it's still wrong. And yeah, even professors that used to be pros can make mistakes.

The end result is no matter the best thing or how much you know, if it's somebody elses cable wrap it according to their direction. I work with one sound/light company that absolutely flips if you over/under anything of theirs.
What drives me crazy is where you have to temp coil cable that is still attached, buried or still in the air and you are neatening and they start at the end of the cable and works to the trapped end. It puts all kinds of wierd kinks in it. Start from the trapped end and coil to the end of the cable, it rolls the twist out the end of the cable.

 

[Psyd]

The end result is no matter the best thing or how much you know, if it's somebody elses cable wrap it according to their direction.

My answer to "how should *x* cable be coiled is always, "However the cable's owner asks you do do it."
If the cable's owner want to destroy his cables because he doesn't know any better, that is his prerogative. I've described the advantages and disadvantages on straight coiling vs over-under, you get to decide what you what to do with your cables.
OTOH, if you show up on my deck, you had better be able to over-under, make the ends on the outside when you're done, and tie a **** decent knot in the tie line when your done with that. If you cannot do those things, you're not allowed to call yourself a stagehand, and you're ****e well not allowed to call yourself aspecialized stagehand, like a sound person, or an electrician.

It puts all kinds of wierd kinks in it.

One of the advantages of over-under is this does not happen. Every 'over' puts a twist in the cable, every 'under' takes it back. Grab a cable at arms length. Have a buddy grab it on the middle of that span, and twist the cable toward you along it's radius. As he does that, relax the cable, and it will form two loops, one either side of where your buddy is applying the twist. That is basically what you're doing with over-under.
Pass either of the ends through that, though, and you get a knot.
Stagehand school, day one, knot-tying: Make a loop, pass an end through the loop, VIOLA, half-hitch. Make a lotta loops, pass the end through them, VIOLA, lotta knots. It ain't rocket surgery.

 

[MNicolai]

Stagehand school, day one, knot-tying: Make a loop, pass an end through the loop, VIOLA, half-hitch. Make a lotta loops, pass the end through them, VIOLA, lotta knots. It ain't rocket surgery.

My personal favorite knot used only in desperate situations is the boy scout knot. The boy scout knot is just tying one knot on top of another knot on top of another knot until you end up with a flustercluck of a knot that is a pain to untie and may or may not have any actual structural integrity to it.

 

[mstaylor]

My answer to "how should *x* cable be coiled is always, "However the cable's owner asks you do do it."
If the cable's owner want to destroy his cables because he doesn't know any better, that is his prerogative. I've described the advantages and disadvantages on straight coiling vs over-under, you get to decide what you what to do with your cables.
OTOH, if you show up on my deck, you had better be able to over-under, make the ends on the outside when you're done, and tie a **** decent knot in the tie line when your done with that. If you cannot do those things, you're not allowed to call yourself a stagehand, and you're ****e well not allowed to call yourself aspecialized stagehand, like a sound person, or an electrician.



One of the advantages of over-under is this does not happen. Every 'over' puts a twist in the cable, every 'under' takes it back. Grab a cable at arms length. Have a buddy grab it on the middle of that span, and twist the cable toward you along it's radius. As he does that, relax the cable, and it will form two loops, one either side of where your buddy is applying the twist. That is basically what you're doing with over-under.
Pass either of the ends through that, though, and you get a knot.
Stagehand school, day one, knot-tying: Make a loop, pass an end through the loop, VIOLA, half-hitch. Make a lotta loops, pass the end through them, VIOLA, lotta knots. It ain't rocket surgery.

I agree 100%, I certainly wasn't saying you weren't correct, just that you need to follow the owner's instructions. When it's yours, do it however you prefer. I assure you I can wrap any method they prefer and can tie it however they prefer.
Knot tieing has a special place for me. I am a rigger and I am a merit badge counseler for the Boy Scouts. I have been teaching knots for years. My one son is an Eagle Scout and the other a Sgt in ROTC and both rig for me. When my wife married me, I taught her how to wrap cable and she is better than many hands. Any of my guys that can't wrap properly are pushers, carps or loaders until they do know.

 

[erosing]

I over-under by default and listen to what the cable is telling me, if it wants a double under or a double over that's fine, I don't like to fight the cable. Cable that has been fought into submission has a tendency to be ugly, bulky, it kinks, and it knots, even if you do everything correctly.

As said though, if it's your cable, I'll do what you want.

 

[mstaylor]

If you make something Idiot Proof, then they will make a Better Idiot . . .

It is hard to idiot proof something, they are too persistant.

My personal favorite knot used only in desperate situations is the boy scout knot. The boy scout knot is just tying one knot on top of another knot on top of another knot until you end up with a flustercluck of a knot that is a pain to untie and may or may not have any actual structural integrity to it.

I don't know about the scouts in your area but the ones I taught could tie knots and fold flags. They learned a minumum of seven knots including bowlines, cloves and at least a taught line hitch. Most could tie a Swiss seat.
One of my favorite sayings about knots is,"If you can't tie a knot, tie a lot!"

 

[porkchop]

Another advantage to over-under'ing cable is that it makes "trained" cable more left hand friendly. I end up switching from right handed to left handed and back all the time and most of our cables are 12 years old and very very used to twisting a certain way, but the twist-untwist that comes from the over-under makes it so I don't have to fight the cable.