Ringling Bros. Accident
- Thread starterruinexplorer
- Start date
Agreed. I hope that the accident was not career ending for any of the performers.
Wow. Yeah that scary. Hope they all end up being okay. Thats got to be tough for that show.
What Rigger?
I'm so fly....I Neverland.
I'm not watching any of these videos.
Why would you?
There's never been anything to be learned. We all know gravity is a constant.
It's yellow journalism at best- sensationalism used to generate web hits and thus advertising dollars for the news companies who don't fact check and have no knowledge of rigging or aerial work whatsoever.
Just my admittedly bitter 2 cents.
Why would you?
There's never been anything to be learned. We all know gravity is a constant.
It's yellow journalism at best- sensationalism used to generate web hits and thus advertising dollars for the news companies who don't fact check and have no knowledge of rigging or aerial work whatsoever.
Just my admittedly bitter 2 cents.
I'm curious how liability plays out in such situations. Something clearly was not done right at some point along the line--whether it was in the design phase, implementation phases, or maintence phase is unknown, but I'm still curious to know how responsibility for such things ends up delegated.
In many touring situations, the road crew is a second set of eyes on the locals work, supervising as it happens. In my experience this is a little less removed in rigging. You don't see the road rigger harness up and check all of the points from above, and you don't see the road rigger watching to make sure every point goes up properly either. 99% of the time it's fine, the local riggers are great. But if something happens (and I'm not trying to say this is the blame of providence local at all.. this is more hypothetical) is it the road guys fault for not checking everything? Does a local rigger on a touring show have liability if something goes wrong? Does a road rigger have liability?
In many touring situations, the road crew is a second set of eyes on the locals work, supervising as it happens. In my experience this is a little less removed in rigging. You don't see the road rigger harness up and check all of the points from above, and you don't see the road rigger watching to make sure every point goes up properly either. 99% of the time it's fine, the local riggers are great. But if something happens (and I'm not trying to say this is the blame of providence local at all.. this is more hypothetical) is it the road guys fault for not checking everything? Does a local rigger on a touring show have liability if something goes wrong? Does a road rigger have liability?
Ringling does not work in any typical way that most arena shows work. From what I have been told, the only local labor that is used is the up riggers who attach the points to the building and does the tie in. Everyone else is with the circus. They do have a rather large production team that travels with the show, but every performer also helps with the load in. Each act gets assigned to a different department to help with load in. My buddy on the show had some monks on one of his electrics crews.
There is a rather large tradition in the circus community of maintaining and rigging your own gear (i.e. your always going to do your best work if you know your mom is going to be hanging from it). Only the people who are on the show know who was responsible for what failed on this show.
techieman33
Well-Known Member
A friend of mine that spent a year and a half with them said the same thing. The only place they used local hands was madison square garden, because the local 1 won't let it happen any other way.
The more I think about it the more amazed I am that rigging accidents aren't common with Ringling. How many nights a year are they doing in how many different cities? The wear and tear of the load in and load out on the rigging gear must be brutal. The amount of work inspecting and repairing to keep everything in top condition must be a HUGE effort.
techieman33
Well-Known Member
Load in and load out aren't that bad, remember they only load in at most once a week, and sometimes sit in a city for 2 weeks. The 2 or 3 shows a day would have to be hard on some gear though. I know most of the lighting gear got shipped off to the shop when it needed work unless it was an easy fix or something that was critical to the show.
With JUST Ringling? Personally, I was surprised when the Cirque accident happened it had not happened sooner. I know what that makes me sound like... and I am kind of upset with myself for saying it. But, its true. We are an INCREDIBLY safe industry. The reason there is no real OSHA oversight of us is because we don't kill enough people. The only reason we get hit when we do is because there is usually a camera pointed at the stage and people are watching unlike the hundreds of industrial accidents that happen every day.
You have to remember that across this country there are numerous touring and installed shows doing this exact same thing every night. The number of Broadway shows, touring arena spectaculars (Batman, Marvel Live, etc), touring Circuses (Cirque, Ringling, Big Apple) installed theme park shows, and concerts we produce every day is staggering. All of these shows are freakishly complicated. They all move quick, install quick, and do it without incident every day. It takes a lot of man power to get P!nk to fly every night in a different city... but they do it.
These guys don't run fast and loose with safety. That is one of the reasons the performers are involved in the load in of the show. They know what they are doing. They work a lot, but most of the people who do this grew up doing it. My buddy who is on the show spent time with Big Apple, left there, then found his way back to the circus.
porkchop
Well-Known Member
If recent history (and Harry Donovan's book) have taught us anything its that accidents like this more often than not happen because of a catastrophic series of events. Even when the investigation does choose to point the finger (ex. the Indiana State Fair stage collapse) there are still lots of questions left unanswered the make the difference between at fault parties and those not help liable a very grey one at best.
I like to assume at all times, "Nobody's going to look out for my own safety but me." The times when someone actually is, their interest is less about my personal safety and more about covering their own butt.
It's a cynical perspective and not always true (people are nicer and do actually look out for others, but you can't know they'll always have your back), but -- at least to the extent that's it's practical -- if you act at all times like the only thing keeping you from getting dead is you, you tend to be a lot more cautious and keep your eyes peeled for potential hazards. Those hazards could be as much a threat to you as someone else, so in keeping yourself safe, you're largely working to keep others safe too.
To that end, if you get dead, it doesn't much matter who's fault it was or why there was grey area in determining where the fault lies, or what anyone is going to do to prevent it from happening again. Doesn't matter to you at least, being dead and all.
Failed clamp blamed in circus disaster
The latest spat of articles seem to point towards the failure of a "clamp". I'm not super knowledgeable in arena rigging, but that seems pretty vague. I'm very glad and amazed that no one was killed.
The latest spat of articles seem to point towards the failure of a "clamp". I'm not super knowledgeable in arena rigging, but that seems pretty vague. I'm very glad and amazed that no one was killed.
JD
Well-Known Member
This looks like the one time a "safety" cable could have actually made things worse. These girls were hanging by their hair, and therefore supported by their necks. It the frame had done a free-fall and then was halted suddenly at a lower elevation, the trauma to the spine and neck may have been fatal.
I disagree with the earlier post that there is no point in watching the video. I am a firm believer in history and learning our mistakes in hopes that they can be avoided in the future. Unfortunately, in almost every endeavor there are critical parts who's failure will cause tragedy. This may have been one of these cases. Still, as with the space shuttle, you want to learn why that part failed in hopes of changing the design and avoiding history repeating itself.
I disagree with the earlier post that there is no point in watching the video. I am a firm believer in history and learning our mistakes in hopes that they can be avoided in the future. Unfortunately, in almost every endeavor there are critical parts who's failure will cause tragedy. This may have been one of these cases. Still, as with the space shuttle, you want to learn why that part failed in hopes of changing the design and avoiding history repeating itself.
I personally know the head rigger of this show. He made a post that I feel that would be important to share regarding the accident.
"So far, I have remained silent on what happened yesterday here in Providence, RI at the 11:00 AM show of Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus presents "Legends". As the head rigger on this show, I have a lot on my mind as well as dealing with OSHA, Providence Police Department and the Providence Fire Department. As this is an ongoing investigation, I can not say a whole lot about this incident. I can say that a steel carabiner that had a stamped rating of 45Kn failed, causing the whole steel structure that supported the eight performers to crash to the ground. I am not going to speculate or share my opinion as to why the carabiner failed. So, for all of those people in the entertainment industry who have questions about this incident, please keep the speculation to a minimum. Thank you."
I'm going to wait to hear what the investigation says regarding the incident.
"So far, I have remained silent on what happened yesterday here in Providence, RI at the 11:00 AM show of Ringling Brothers and Barnum and Bailey Circus presents "Legends". As the head rigger on this show, I have a lot on my mind as well as dealing with OSHA, Providence Police Department and the Providence Fire Department. As this is an ongoing investigation, I can not say a whole lot about this incident. I can say that a steel carabiner that had a stamped rating of 45Kn failed, causing the whole steel structure that supported the eight performers to crash to the ground. I am not going to speculate or share my opinion as to why the carabiner failed. So, for all of those people in the entertainment industry who have questions about this incident, please keep the speculation to a minimum. Thank you."
I'm going to wait to hear what the investigation says regarding the incident.
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
If we ever find out, many times its shoveled under the carpet. The issue I have with these accidents is about half the audience (roughly 1000 people) think they know how this works and are appalled at the way we do things. The problem is they don't know squat about what we do and unfortunately since they are the majority somehow manage to push media into a frenzy of how horrible our work practices are. Yeah our 12 hour days can be rough but guess what... that nurse who is either saving your life or preventing you from getting a disease who's decisions could mean the difference between life and death works 12 hour days as well. Yet, you don't see the media in a frenzy everytime someone dies in a hospital.
As an admirer of arena rigging and those who work in that field I was wondering where a carabiner would be used in a point? I wasn't aware of a rigging purpose of this device since it is so prevalent in rock/mountain climbing applications, I didn't even realize anyone made that particular hardware rated to that amount.
I'm not trying to get into speculation of this particular rigging scenario, I'm just curious on how it would fit into the equation, chain to spanset, stinger to chain, etc.? I thought they were primarily used with rope. I should also include I have no plans to do any sort of rigging involving this hardware, this aspect of our business is just fascinating to me. That being said, I respect the gravity of the situation and the wishes relayed through the aforementioned post. If my question is out of line, please let me know.
I'm not trying to get into speculation of this particular rigging scenario, I'm just curious on how it would fit into the equation, chain to spanset, stinger to chain, etc.? I thought they were primarily used with rope. I should also include I have no plans to do any sort of rigging involving this hardware, this aspect of our business is just fascinating to me. That being said, I respect the gravity of the situation and the wishes relayed through the aforementioned post. If my question is out of line, please let me know.
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