Automated Fixtures Clay Paky Miniscan or something similar? Opinions please

[Horvath]

I run a group that provides live sound and lighting for concerts and dance parties on campus. After debating between buying/renting and moving head vs. mirror, I think it makes most sense to buy scanners and rent moving heads if necessary for large events; we can't permanently install anything, and i'm worried that moving heads will quickly be broken due to their dimensions and weight. Moreover, our budget isn't huge and most of us are new to lighting. We could, of course, just rent moving heads when we need them, but then the others won't ever get to learn how to use them. i'd use these from a backlight position, so full pan/tilt wouldn't be necessary anyway.

Does that seem logical? In particular, do you think scanners would really be more reliable than moving heads?

The scanners would compliment a 12x 1kw par64 backlight rig, so I'd want something with enough power to cut though those beams. Speaking of power, we only have 120v (240A total from two-wire distros), so that also limits options.

The Clay Paky Miniscan HP3 seems to be the perfect unit for this application. Have you used this or other Clay Paky scanners? Any other ideas? I'd prefer to buy new (assuming there's some sort of warranty).

thanks for your input.

BTW we would also buy a new board to use these with, probably an Element because of the price, ease of use(?), and lots of subs (i always end up busking).

 

[LavaASU]

You are VERY VERY lucky you have that kind of budget. I work with a similar group at ASU. Our annual budget is less than the cost of an Element nevermind the Clay Paky's.

Back to your question though. We have 8 trackspots and 1-4 intellibeams depending on what's working at the moment (the ibeams are really temperamental!). We use the ibeams sitting on their bottoms on 2 wood blocks (I think they're 4 x 4s covered in black gaff... one on each side so that the connectors and air vents are not obstructed). The trackspots are new and will be used both as floor units and on truss as backlights/dance floor lights. We chose the trackspots because they are small and easy to move, bright enough for 90% of the shows we do, and the lamp costs are nominal compared to arc lamps. The trackspots are also extremely easy to work on if you know anything about moving light repair-- which is a major concern for us as our staff does all repairs in-house. That said however, if we'd had the budget to go for moving heads we certainly would have. The cheapest reliable moving heads we could have found would have been roughly $700+/ each. The trackspots were about $150 each.

I wouldn't necessarily say that scanners are more reliable than moving heads. From an abuse standpoint possibly-- however most quality lights can take a surprising amount of abuse, and if you're exceeding that then you're doing something wrong (or need to have a chat with the crew). However except for pan and tilt a scanner and a moving head have pretty much the same stuff inside. You're gonna have motors, wheels, maybe flags, dimmer/strobe, ect. Motors are going to go out, sensors are going to get dirty, ect. What are you planning to do when the color wheel won't home correctly? Do you have someone who would know how to fix this? Do you have a shop that repairs the light you are going to buy? If so do you have money set aside for the repairs (which will not be cheap most likely)? What about routine maintenance (lamp swaps, cleaning), do you have someone capable of doing this?

Personally, I love the look of moving heads as floor units, so in your position I would go with moving heads on road cases as floor units. Moving heads are also often seen as more professional than scanners.

I rarely buy new, but that mostly comes down to budget (and the fact that in a lot of cases I can't have the whatever out of commission long enough for warranty repairs-- somehow things always break before back-to-back shows instead of before a dark week!).

 

[Horvath]

Thanks for your response!

You are VERY VERY lucky you have that kind of budget. I work with a similar group at ASU. Our annual budget is less than the cost of an Element nevermind the Clay Paky's.

Our budget situation is weird... last year I thought they wouldn't give us much, so I only asked for $4000 for the whole year. Then I realized that how much we get depends on how much we ask for. Throw some technical jargon / nice pictures into a presentation, ask for a whole bunch of money; they'll 'cut it down' to some nice round number, but you'll still get a lot of money.

Anyway,
I should have mentioned that these will be used mostly on a backlight pipe position 20' above the stage. If I put them on the ground, even on flight cases, I doubt they'd last the night before being doused in beer, fallen on, etc., even though they'd be out of the crowd's direct contact. Much of our job involves asking people to please get down from the speakers, move their drinks, keep away from the board, etc.

What are you planning to do when the color wheel won't home correctly? Do you have someone who would know how to fix this? Do you have a shop that repairs the light you are going to buy? If so do you have money set aside for the repairs (which will not be cheap most likely)? What about routine maintenance (lamp swaps, cleaning), do you have someone capable of doing this?

Um...good point... pretty much what we do for everything: look it up on the internet, post to ControlBooth, and if we still can't figure it out and fix it, send it to a local shop for repairs. The problem is, the only brands supported by shops around here are ETC, Martin, Color Kinetics, Vari*Lite. There might be freelance guys that could fix it, I guess. If something breaks we can be sure that repairs will be funded 100%, but sending things to California would be a huge hassle. Routine maintenance isn't a problem though, I do that.

We chose the trackspots because they are small and easy to move, bright enough for 90% of the shows we do, and the lamp costs are nominal compared to arc lamps.

That's what I'm looking for. Can you give me any idea of what conventional light they might be equivalent to / work well with?

The cheapest reliable moving heads we could have found would have been roughly $700+/ each. The trackspots were about $150 each.

That's surprisingly cheap! And what reliable moving head would were you looking for under $1000?

Thanks

 

[derekleffew]

...That's what I'm looking for. Can you give me any idea of what conventional light they might be equivalent to / work well with?

The Trackspot uses a 250W, 24V EVC lamp. Practically invisible next to a 1000W PAR64.

Perhaps look at Martin Product - MX-10 Extreme™ or Product - smartMAC™ .

 

[Horvath]

The Trackspot uses a 250W, 24V EVC lamp. Practically invisible next to a 1000W PAR64.

Perhaps look at Martin Product - MX-10 Extreme™ or Product - smartMAC™ .

Good point. I see here that the trackspot only does 1000 lux at 6m vs. the MX-10's 3,222 lux at 6m. I have cheap LED washes that do about 1000 at 2m, and that's ok for architectural fx on the walls but not enough on stage.

Also, any idea why the HP3 needs "1,000VA at 230V 50Hz" (I'm assuming that means 1000W) when the lamp is only 300W? Or, why does the MX10 with a 250W discharge lamp only need 340W?

Good call on the SmartMAC too, fanless is probably a good idea for our space (fog, haze, dust, two kinds of smoke...).

Thanks

 

[derekleffew]

...Also, any idea why the HP3 needs "1,000VA at 230V 50Hz" (I'm assuming that means 1000W) when the lamp is only 300W? ...

VA and W are not the same thing. See http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/question-day/25335-watts-difference.html .

 

[TimMiller]

I had 8 miniscan HPE's. They blow trackspots away. They have a color wheel, rotating gobo wheel, and a prism. They are very easy to work on. Their biggest thing is you have to monitor your lamp hours or you end up damaging the reflector which is very easy to replace (takes less than 5 minutes) another problem I had was occasionally I had a fan that would die causing the unit to thermal and the lamp to shut off. I loved the lights. Here is a video with them in action. They were using 6 units. Also since I have sold mine I do have lots of parts if you need them. ‪SuperFix Demo 12-2007‬‏ - YouTube

 

[LavaASU]

I didn't mean to sound as if I was suggesting the trackspots-- they're old at this point, and if you can afford something better by all means get it. Also Derek is correct that they will not cut through 1k pars. We typically are extremely limited power wise, and although bought some 1k pars, we weren't able to use them but like once due to power limitations at the event sites. So we use 300W Par56s as front light and 150W par38s as backlight/eye-candy on the conventional rig (basically last year's rig). We also have a new LED rig with 12 1/2W LED bars and 12 LED Par56s which is what the trackspots will primarily be used with.

The $700 moving heads would have been used through a friend. Not really readily available.

As far as someone to repair them, a moving light is a moving light is a moving light (assuming you don't go with something strange like the VLX) to most competent ML techs. So if you were to buy used and/or after warranty is up any freelance ML tech is likely to be willing to repair them.

 

[JD]

Also, any idea why the HP3 needs "1,000VA at 230V 50Hz" (I'm assuming that means 1000W) when the lamp is only 300W? Or, why does the MX10 with a 250W discharge lamp only need 340W?

Without giving away Derek's VA / Watts quiz, there are other factors at play as well. Any appliance or fixture must be rated at it's maximum draw. This includes the lamp wattage, loss in the ballast circuit, auxiliary circuits draw, and worst case draw during lamp strike/warm-up. When the quiz has ended, the remaining numbers will be explained.