Doors zip tied shut

[zmb]

I would have guessed that it was originally the sanctuary. I think there's a perception about everyone being welcome and about no one being excluded that makes some churches uncomfortable with locks on sanctuary doors. If you can get in the building you can get in the sanctuary. I wonder if non-locking fire doors are actually a special order item?

There should be non-locking fire doors readily available. I see them all the time in exit stairwells.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I'm not sure the basis for the determination that theses are fire doors but without latching hardware, they aren't fire doors.

I believe you could put deadbolts on these doors - keyed not knobs - and signage that doors must be unlocked when room is occupied. Of course exit hardware - panic bars - would be better.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

There should be non-locking fire doors readily available. I see them all the time in exit stairwells.

Do you mean locking or latching?

 

[StradivariusBone]

The only thing making me think they were rated doors was the plate on the side of the door by the jamb. From my days of running low voltage cable, I was given the understanding that doors bearing the plate are some type of fire door (usually important because fire doors often meant fire wall and we'd need to protect any penetrations we'd end up making through them). I will go back and double check what the plate actually says and report.

The doors have no locking mechanism of any sort, but they do have closers. If we go deadbolt, we'll have to put in pins (not sure of the nomenclature here, the sliding ones that lock one of the doors in place), on the one door.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Can't explain. Any evidence that there were some sort of latches or any hardware removed?

Not trying to be hard - I guessed the doors were labeled - probably 20 minutes? maybe 45?

I wonder if for some reason the hardware was just not installed at the time of initial construction. Wonder if the original plans are around.

I think the correct move is talk to a door contractor and see if they'll give you a quote to install panic bars and latches.

 

[StradivariusBone]

No clearly visible remodeling, I would assume it's always been this way. I agree, it's very strange to me as well. I also can't guarantee that the wall around the room is in fact a fire wall. The whole building is almost like a large warehouse (approximately the size of the large room) with a steel roof, but instead of steel walls all the way down, there's a 1-story building built around it on all sides (the hallways, offices, classrooms, etc.). I would think the building code would mandate it as such, but I don't have that information.

I will try and talk to some more people about the doors this weekend. I'm assuming a reputable door contractor would be versed in the required codes, but that's also why I wanted to check CB first for thoughts. I will also check out the doors again to see their rating. I think panic bars and latches would go over better than deadbolts with the powers that be.

In any event, knowing what you know now, do you think the zip ties would have raised an eyebrow from the AHJ? I'm trying to determine if I was right in being strongly concerned about this.

 

[zmb]

Do you mean locking or latching?

Non-locking, the door can always be opened. Isn't latching part of what makes a fire door be a fire door to keep strong drafts that fires create from opening the doors?

 

[MNicolai]

In any event, knowing what you know now, do you think the zip ties would have raised an eyebrow from the AHJ? I'm trying to determine if I was right in being strongly concerned about this.

Zip ties would raise eyebrows with just about anyone. Even these weren't in the paths of egress, they'd still be bad ideas. In a fire, you can't know where a fire will happen or what will be between you and your path of egress. Having as many paths available to you as is possible is always preferred. If AHJ saw this or became aware of it, even if these weren't paths of egress and it wasn't against code, your AHJ would be quickly become suspicious of what demons may lie in the rest of your building and end up earning you a far more detailed and thorough inspection of the rest of the building.

It's bizarre nonetheless that this space would not have some form of locking mechanism (either by key or by allen wrench through a push bar), but this must be a use case that the architect hadn't foreseen or maybe the room layout was altered after the original construction.

I'd recommend taking a few photos of the doors you have, sending them off to a few locksmiths (maybe your building already has a master key system through a vendor who can provide you this service) and if you tell them how many doors like that you'd want to switch over, they can pretty readily inform you of the cost of either altering the existing doors or replacing them with new ones. I'd be a little amazed if there wasn't a way to alter the existing doors with new hardware though.

 

[StradivariusBone]

Ok, so I checked the doors labels more closely- the first one says:

Warnock Hersy Listed Fire Door 20 Minute Rating, minimum latch throw 1/2 inch.

There's another red label that says:

This fire door must be installed with approved or listed surface mounted hardware. Any other hardware shall void the label.

I'm not sure if the hardware the label mentions refers to the lack of latching hardware or to the hinges, door handle and push plate that are on the door as it is now. In my mind, it's pretty useless as a fire door as it is now since it wouldn't stay shut in the event of a fire. I don't think the force exerted by the closer is strong enough to combat a hot air draft.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Without the latching hardware, it's not a fire door. Too many variables to know if one is - or was - required. Worship facilities use to have a lot of exceptions. Fewer now but still some. Sorry - too intricate to make a for sure recommendation.

 

[SteveB]

What I'm seeing though, is a scenario where, should somebody fail to lock the access doors into the greenroom and/or stage area, that it would be possible for someone to enter the audience chamber and then encounter zip-tied doors, which would prevent egress.

I'm pretty certain that would be an egregious code violation.

A few decades ago, we had a situation in our space (NYC) where the original door locks were non-functional. The answer from management was to install dead-bolted and padlocked door locks.

The NYC Fire Department had that situation corrected.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

You can lock a door if there are no occupants. If the authorities don't think you do a good job of enforcing this, you won't be allowed to.

 

[SteveB]

Tapa talk fail.

I was typing that you can lock to prevent entry, not egress. At least not in a place of public assembly, AFAIK.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[StradivariusBone]

I think the next step is to seek advice from a reputable locksmith or door installer. Thank you all for your input! This has given me good insight that I will share with the powers that be.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I really think you need an architect or fire protection engineer to determine if fire doors are required. Locksmiths and installers will not usually be experts on that.

 

[marmer]

You can lock a door if there are no occupants. If the authorities don't think you do a good job of enforcing this, you won't be allowed to.

Oooh, good point. That may be exactly why the original hardware, as described, seemed to be latching but non-lockable fire doors (a la exit stairs, as another poster pointed out.) If the original clients didn't see a need to keep people out or think they realistically could, they might have not wanted the doors to be lockable. In fact, if people do come and go frequently (to set up and deliver things) and there's not always a person around to unlock, that might be desirable. I think, going forward, the simplest solution that won't require a lot of extra cost and construction is to program the space in such a way that leaving valuables unattended is not necessary.