Mixers/Consoles I need some, ahem, objective opinions, M7 vs Pro2 vs ?

[Footer]

"Fixed" that for you. Although it doesn't make much sense either way if you ask me.

Behringer and Midas all fall under the same umbrella these days. Quality control I've seen with both Midas and Behringer while under Music Group has left something to be desired, although I'm aware Behringer has been making a diligent effort to turn their brand's reputation around. If you buy a Behringer or Midas console these days, don't buy it because you thinks it's a great little console that'll last you a long time. Buy it because for the price point it's at, when it breaks, it's not much more costly to just replace it than it is to fix it. At the price point these consoles are at, they might as well be disposable after 3-5 years.

You want to back that up with real world examples? I own two pro2s and an X32 and have had zero problems with any of them. Pro series desks come through all the time and always fire up. I have never seen a pro series desk OR an X32 fail. Also calling a 25k to 80k console disposable is an extreme overstatement.

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[MNicolai]

You want to back that up with real world examples? I own two pro2s and an X32 and have had zero problems with any of them. Pro series desks come through all the time and always fire up. I have never seen a pro series desk OR an X32 fail. Also calling a 25k to 80k console disposable is an extreme overstatement.

I was referring to the M32/X32 lineage as being disposable for their price point of $5k, and the assessment of quality control is based off of seeing three Verona-series consoles in three different venues each having the same PCB's go belly up.

 

[Senorfish]

"Fixed" that for you.

You don't need to fix anything for me. My Midas gear has been working great for 6 years- would never part with it and it meets every rider I come across, even the bands with Grammy's that we present.

It sounds like you're doing some salesman trash talking of your competition? I mean in your post you say that you sell Yamaha and Digico gear. So you obviously have a financial stake in representing those brands. Why don't you put that disclosure in your signature line so everyone can know fairly when you're sharing your 'opinion' that you're also sharing the brands you sell?

Just because Berhinger bought out Midas does not mean Midas is now Berhinger quality. Do you call a Lexus a Toyota? A Corvette a simple Chevy? How about a Jauguar or Land Rover an Indian Tata? Tata makes the cheapest car in the world... a $3k commuter. And they own Land Rover and Jaguar. Is a Land Rover now the cheapest car in the world?

Going by your logic... if you're promoting Yamaha, is it because they make great golf carts? Maybe you like CL consoles because of their salt water corrosion resistance like a Yamaha motor boat outboard? Or because it shares electrical components with Yamaha motorcycles? Makes the console mix faster, right? Same company, same umbrella. So the comparison is fair, right? Right....

 

[MNicolai]

Let's throttle back the rhetoric a little bit there, please. I was basing my assessment on a number of different venues I've seen, some clients, others not, who have had Behringer consoles with problems and/or Midas consoles with problems. The Music Group umbrella matters, because when you call support or request a repair, Music Group is who you call.

The company I work for is a design/installation shop and has no stake in one brand over another. What we do have a stake in is our reputation when we find ourselves having recommended a product that then fails and leaves a venue without a fully-functioning sound system. It feels both professionally and personally embarrassing when such a circumstance arises, as have arisen.

I'll bet if you get into the Midas' flagship consoles, you'll get a decent product. As for Behringer, at least in their recent X32 era, they seem to be doing better at providing avenues for customer support that people can use if/when people have issues with their consoles.

Based on what I've seen to date though, I'd be leery of buying or recommending either a lower/mid-range Midas product or any Behringer product, and I would be cautious at approaching an M32 or X32 as an alternative to what might otherwise be a $20k or $30k console.

All of this said, I'm cautious when it comes to Midas and Behringer. Cautious enough that I'd be remissed not to recommend to someone considering purchasing a console under either of these brands that they should seek out more information from existing users and polling them on their experiences with the reliability of the hardware, software, and customer support.

As for the disposable remark, I do know someone who does small tours with a couple X32's in lieu of a higher price point console with the understanding that the X32 is likely to not survive long on tour. This is because if/when one fails, they can just replace it with another for what is an insignificant cost to them. After all, you can buy a few X32's for every one higher-price-point console.

 

[Senorfish]

Throttle back the rhetoric? You're the one who started it by feeling the need to correct another persons post. Keep your rhetorical hands on your own post if you don't want to get in a debate.

Anyway, I'd have to flatly disagree with everything you've said. There is nothing unreliable in Midas line of equipment. In fact- it is an industry leading brand... and has a commanding position in the European market. Like Digico has a commanding position in the American market. You've been going on and on trying to say that Yamaha makes a better digital console. Well I've worked on both, and I have to say I've seen Yamaha's fail when you really need them. But worse than that, the Yamaha sound just plain sucks. It lacks clarity, crispness, and to my ears sounds narrow in bandwith. Midas makes a better board because the sound is transparent, unmolested, and clean. I was being polite before when I made my first post saying that I simply prefered Midas sound over Yamaha. And guess what- most of the riders I have on my desk list Midas as a prefered choice, and many specifically request NO YAMAHA. But you seem to have a big need to go on and on about an inferior product- trying to make it out to be something it's not. And you take it upon yourself to correct other peoples posts. Mind your own business- which is obviously selling Yamaha and Digico products. And I'll mind my business which is producing concerts.

 

[josh88]

Take a breath. He's sharing his opinion, you're sharing yours, they're both valid in discussion even if your personal experiences don't match. It's worth noting when making a decision and the op can assign weight to opinions based on his/her experiences too.


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[Footer]

I was referring to the M32/X32 lineage as being disposable for their price point of $5k, and the assessment of quality control is based off of seeing three Verona-series consoles in three different venues each having the same PCB's go belly up.

The Verona was designed by Midas before the merger... LONG before the merger and is since a discontinued product.

On your same logic, the XL4's that are still in the wild (Lyle Lovett still owns and tours with two) need constant attention. The Heritage that I just pulled out of service has some issues.... after 10 years of service. Over its life it had a few cards that were sent out for service. It happens. Caps go. Corrosion happens. It is expected. Some consoles did have weak parts. The heritage had issues with its automation section. crap happens. This is true across every console in our industry. You had 3 cards die in a console that is at least 4 years old. I'm sure it was a quick repair and your off and going. Any Midas shop should have spare loaner cards/strips for every console and you should be back in business quick.

Now, what I have not heard of is a single X32 that failed during a show...

 

[MNicolai]

You had 3 cards die in a console that is at least 4 years old. I'm sure it was a quick repair and your off and going. Any Midas shop should have spare loaner cards/strips for every console and you should be back in business quick.

This is where things get muddy. I remember one occasion where we sent in a module and after a period of time (want to say it was 2-3 weeks?) couldn't find out the status update or get a call back. Landed in a position where we couldn't find out when the repair would be done despite several phone calls, had the venue saying they had a show in a week that needed the console, and had to play a lot of phone tag to put a Plan B in place for the venue while also trying to track down a repair update. This was Music Group era support. It was a very awkward position to be in, not being able to tell the venue if they'd get their module back in time or if we'd have to start calling in favors with local rental houses to get them a loaner.

Now, what I have not heard of is a single X32 that failed during a show...

Thus far, not during a show that I've heard of either. I've heard of a few that had issues either from the factory or from being bounced around in a truck that had ribbon cable issues. I'll admit I was pleasantly impressed with how Behringer was on top of this when people would post here on CB about these issues. Doesn't mean I'm about to hop on the Behringer bandwagon but I'm slowly (albeit hesitantly) developing an appreciation for the X32's role in the digital console market.

 

[FMEng]

I have a friend who has a small fleet of X32s, which he trucks around for his pro sound company. He handles his equipment with respect and keeps them in Gator cases, and has not had any failures. That said, he keeps an X32 Core in the rack with the S16 stage boxes, so he has full redundancy at all times for very little money and zero truck space. A dead console would require him to mix on an iPad, but that's much better than no sound for the gig. The show files work in all X32 family devices, too. You can't do that with any other console ecosystem out there. His small stage rack also holds a UPS to power the whole works.

Analog consoles are inherently redundant and can be made nearly bulletproof by the addition of dual power supplies. An analog console might lose a buss or an input channel, but the rest will keep going as long as it has all the supply rails. Digital consoles are the exact opposite. There are many points of failure that will kill the whole thing. I don't care if it is a Behringer, an SSL, or a Digico, if the gig is critical you'd better have a backup.

 

[museav]

So many aspects of audio are subjective with everyone having their own opinion and not necessarily sharing that of others. Combine that with people having different experiences with the same equipment and you end up with potentially greatly varying opinions on many products. That should not be surprising nor cause for argument.

Adding to that, people often discuss nuances that while valid may or may not have much impact in actual use. For example, there is no arguing that there are differences between various preamps and some of those differences are significant, but do all differences actually affect what the audience hears in the all live sound applications? Once you account for the content, the operator, the rest of the audio system and its setup as well as the acoustical environment, all of which can vary, how much actual difference do some differences between preamps make in what the audience hears and is that not the relevant factor?

As far as Midas versus Behringer, the new Midas M32 really blurs the lines by apparently mixing the firmware and UI from the Behringer X32 series with a redesigned housing and Midas preamps and faders. So now you have Midas design assistance for Behringer products in the X32 series products and Midas products based on Behringer developed code in the M32. In the U.S. you also now have one single service center for both Behringer and Midas products. No arguing that the M32 will likely be a superior product to the X32 or that the difference in price may be justified, but how does a rider that accepts Midas but says "no Behringer" really apply to products like the X32 and M32 that have direct input and even components or firmware/software from both companies?

 

[TimmyP1955]

We (day job) have been using M7s for some time - running mostly IEMs for our clients. (These replaced big old Ramsa consoles). Every one has been happy with them.

This past spring we bought a pair of XL8 for a tour. We have since sold most of the M7s (which wasn't easy - for good money anyway) and replaced them with Pro2s (we are keeping a couple of M7s for dry hires). Everyone is happy with the change.
Given the new Pro series prices (which have not been annouced very loudly at all), they are a no-brainer I think.


Two Midas caveats:

"Aux sends" cannot be preEQ. This could be a problem if you are mixing monitors from FOH and you don't want to bother splitting the channels.

Unlike on Yamahas, the EQ bands have defined ranges.