Wiring issue

edifi

Member
My building is about 40 years old. The first round of circuits were put in when the building was built. I'm not sure when the second and third rounds were put in, but the fourth round was put in four years ago. The circuits are all mixed up on the electrics above the stage. Numbering is weird. The circuits above the audience are all new. Here is my problem. Each time I rig a show, I find more circuits that do not communicate with the board. Dimmers are all OK, there is power in the circuit, but nothing happens when I use the circuit and patch to the board. At first it was only a few circuits on stage right, but now the problem extends to about a third of the stage. Two of the new circuits above the audience are also compromised. The district I work for refuses to hire an outside electrician, and the district electrician knows very little. There is only so much I can do with extensions and two-fers.
Thanks
 
God I can only imagine what the mess looks like under the hood.

Did it all atleast get ripped out and reinstalled once or was it just compounded.

There isn’t much we can help with if the problem is just a spaghetti factory and not willing to get outside help just adds icing to the cake.

Your biggest hope is that your patch is just not right at all. My suggestion is unplug your whole patch and go through 1 by 1. It’s a PITA but this will give you a true count on what really works and what was human patch error.

Side note: getting an upgrade every 10 years is pretty awesome.
 
God I can only imagine what the mess looks like under the hood.

Did it all atleast get ripped out and reinstalled once or was it just compounded.

There isn’t much we can help with if the problem is just a spaghetti factory and not willing to get outside help just adds icing to the cake.

Your biggest hope is that your patch is just not right at all. My suggestion is unplug your whole patch and go through 1 by 1. It’s a PITA but this will give you a true count on what really works and what was human patch error.

Side note: getting an upgrade every 10 years is pretty awesome.

No it did not get ripped out; it was just added in. I have done a complete repatch - several times. I have also gone through the entire patch system when I try a circuit and it doesn't work. Requires a lot of colorful metaphors, which I grit inside my head because I yell at my kids for swearing, so don't want to swear in front of them.
 
How did you establish that "the dimmers are OK?" You could easily have some dead dimmer modules and still see leakage voltage from them at the receptacles. Knowing what kind of dimmer rack you have would help.
 
Well crap.

Well next thing to do is give us gear specs top to bottom and wiring diagram best as possible.
 
Well crap.

Well next thing to do is give us gear specs top to bottom and wiring diagram best as possible.
@edifi @Amiers @FMEng @JD I've sorted at least 3 similar installations, on top of installations, added to previous installations in my area. Typically they've been installed by contractors, modified / improved by a second contractor years later, then expanded / improved by a third contractor. 'nough said.
Here's a common error I've uncovered in all 3 installations.
Often contractors have kept track of the hot lines but lost track of the neutrals.
I'll detail one example while the other installs in different buildings / nearby cities / by totally different contractors came down to the same root cause.
The installation I'll detail was a follows:
The group began with three 8 dimmer portable dimmer packs housed in a room adjacent to their booth.
The outputs of the packs were all 15 Amp 120 Volt parallel blade / U-Ground industrial quality household connectors.
Female duplexes on the dimmer packs and a row of male tails neatly installed from individual cable grips hanging in a row from a length of covered trough.
Out in their theatre, 8 circuits (#'d 1 - 8) hung as female tails from a trough behind their proscenium. A second group of 8 circuits (#'d 9 - 16) hung from a trough located as their 1st FOH. The third group of 8 circuits (#'d 17 - 24) hung from a trough located as their 2nd FOH.
So far, so good. All neatly installed, proper strain reliefs, covers closed, nice big yellow and black Brady labels. It all worked, nothing flickered and nobody got shocked.
Next step:
Two wall mounted 12 x 2.4 Kw installation racks were bolted to a back stage wall with their outputs routed via conduit to three locations back stage. One 12 dimmer rack powered 12 additional tails added within the existing 1 st electrics trough behind the proscenium. The second 12 dimmer rack was routed via conduit to a pair of 6 circuit boxes approximately 18" above deck height on the stage (rear) side of their proscenium with one located SR and the other SL.
Next step: Someone decided the group should graduate from household parallel blade connectors to 20 Amp "old style" Twist-Locks. The group made this leap in the mid 1960's.
In the dimmer room, they stayed with parallel blade U-ground connectors as that matched their original 24 dimmers.
Out in their theatre, they changed all of their connectors to the 1960's Twist-locks and changed all of the male connectors on their instruments from parallel blades to twists disturbing their asbestos tails in the process.
Around about this point, two problems began to reveal themselves.
1; If all circuits were in use, things pretty much continued to work as anticipated.
2; If some circuits were unused and left hanging unplugged in their dimmer room, two problems were noted:
a; Some circuits known to work were now no longer working; their males were plugged into dimmers known to be working but instruments known to be functional were no longer working.
b; Technicians were often receiving shocks from unused male connectors hanging disconnected from dimmers in their original dimmer room.
CUTTING TO THE CHASE:
Over the course of the 'upgrades / improvements' installers had kept careful track of all hot conductors with regard to correctly numbering them BUT they'd lost track of which specific white wire was which figuring 'they're all neutrals, how can you go wrong'.
If / when ALL of your neutrals are terminating on your neutral bar, odds are in your favor.
If / when you inadvertently have a dimmer feeding out to an incandescent lamp, passing through its 500 Watt filament and returning on the incorrect neutral which is hanging, un-patched, on the wall of your dimmer room you've got a live source on an un-mated male connector just waiting to catch the attention of an innocent bystander.
Losing track of the specific neutrals proved to be the root of the problems in all three installations I personally delved into sorting:
Different connector types.
Different buildings.
Different cities.
Different contractors.
Different dimmers: Strand, ETC and Score Systems.
I'm not suggesting this is the problem in this case, only pointing out it's one possibility and quite time consuming to sort after the fact.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
Well Ron has a point. It was going to be my next suggestion which ultimately sucks because it will require someone to come in and rip it apart to find the hanging neutral.

I’m sorry the district is being the way they are. It sounds like you are up a creek with no paddle or boat.

This is one of those let the ship sink til they build you a new one sort of situation.

Or

Keep fighting the fight til you find someone willing to hear your plea. Maybe goto the people that support your arts center in the district and lawyerquest it up.

Wish you luck.
 
@edifi @Amiers @FMEng @JD I've sorted at least 3 similar installations, on top of installations, added to previous installations in my area. Typically they've been installed by contractors, modified / improved by a second contractor years later, then expanded / improved by a third contractor. 'nough said.
Here's a common error I've uncovered in all 3 installations.
Often contractors have kept track of the hot lines but lost track of the neutrals.
I'll detail one example while the other installs in different buildings / nearby cities / by totally different contractors came down to the same root cause.
The installation I'll detail was a follows:
The group began with three 8 dimmer portable dimmer packs housed in a room adjacent to their booth.
The outputs of the packs were all 15 Amp 120 Volt parallel blade / U-Ground industrial quality household connectors.
Female duplexes on the dimmer packs and a row of male tails neatly installed from individual cable grips hanging in a row from a length of covered trough.
Out in their theatre, 8 circuits (#'d 1 - 8) hung as female tails from a trough behind their proscenium. A second group of 8 circuits (#'d 9 - 16) hung from a trough located as their 1st FOH. The third group of 8 circuits (#'d 17 - 24) hung from a trough located as their 2nd FOH.
So far, so good. All neatly installed, proper strain reliefs, covers closed, nice big yellow and black Brady labels. It all worked, nothing flickered and nobody got shocked.
Next step:
Two wall mounted 12 x 2.4 Kw installation racks were bolted to a back stage wall with their outputs routed via conduit to three locations back stage. One 12 dimmer rack powered 12 additional tails added within the existing 1 st electrics trough behind the proscenium. The second 12 dimmer rack was routed via conduit to a pair of 6 circuit boxes approximately 18" above deck height on the stage (rear) side of their proscenium with one located SR and the other SL.
Next step: Someone decided the group should graduate from household parallel blade connectors to 20 Amp "old style" Twist-Locks. The group made this leap in the mid 1960's.
In the dimmer room, they stayed with parallel blade U-ground connectors as that matched their original 24 dimmers.
Out in their theatre, they changed all of their connectors to the 1960's Twist-locks and changed all of the male connectors on their instruments from parallel blades to twists disturbing their asbestos tails in the process.
Around about this point, two problems began to reveal themselves.
1; If all circuits were in use, things pretty much continued to work as anticipated.
2; If some circuits were unused and left hanging unplugged in their dimmer room, two problems were noted:
a; Some circuits known to work were now no longer working; their males were plugged into dimmers known to be working but instruments known to be functional were no longer working.
b; Technicians were often receiving shocks from unused male connectors hanging disconnected from dimmers in their original dimmer room.
CUTTING TO THE CHASE:
Over the course of the 'upgrades / improvements' installers had kept careful track of all hot conductors with regard to correctly numbering them BUT they'd lost track of which specific white wire was which figuring 'they're all neutrals, how can you go wrong'.
If / when ALL of your neutrals are terminating on your neutral bar, odds are in your favor.
If / when you inadvertently have a dimmer feeding out to an incandescent lamp, passing through its 500 Watt filament and returning on the incorrect neutral which is hanging, un-patched, on the wall of your dimmer room you've got a live source on an un-mated male connector just waiting to catch the attention of an innocent bystander.
Losing track of the specific neutrals proved to be the root of the problems in all three installations I personally delved into sorting:
Different connector types.
Different buildings.
Different cities.
Different contractors.
Different dimmers: Strand, ETC and Score Systems.
I'm not suggesting this is the problem in this case, only pointing out it's one possibility and quite time consuming to sort after the fact.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
This might be the case since the first installation used a set of dimmers set into the back wall of the theater. The second installation (I think) brought a dimmer rack into the work area (I know - great area to install sensitive electronics). The third added dimmers above and below the others and the fourth installation added the 99 that are currently there, again top and bottom of the rack.
 
Ingratiate yourself with some influential parents and encourage them to harangue the powers that be to fix this. Toss in "safety"and "for the kids". You need an electrician, and it appears parent politics is required.
 

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