Mixers/Consoles Looking for Opinions

[lieperjp]

As the title of this thread states, I'm looking for opinions on this idea.

Background:
We are in the process of building a new chapel at my school, and the budget for that allowed for a RSS Roland V-Mix V400 digital mixer with two 16-channel snake heads. Fortunately for us, we got the sound equipment about 6 months before it will be installed (i.e. purchased and shipped last spring, will be installed in two-three months.)

We've been playing with it and have actually grown to love it - we're going to have a hard time going back to our Mackie 36-chan analogue mixer.

The problem:
However, our TD has recently decided to look into purchasing one - most likely a used one due to cost restraints. That's what I'm looking for opinions - is it worth looking into a used one? This is the theory: We (the tech crew) will buy the mixer (our whole budget, pretty much) and then the two major organizations (student senate and the theatre group) that use the auditorium and our resources will buy the snake heads. I would guess that would put us at a total of $9,000-10,000 max for the purchase. Should we be looking into the VMix? I thought yes, since that would give a sense of uniformity between the buildings. Is it dangerous to buy a used one - it would probably be a demo mixer from the sound company.

Thanks for your opinions!

 

[museav]

There is a difference between 'used' equipment and 'demo' equipment from an authorized dealer such as the latter usually coming with some warranty and support. It would probably also depend on how much you are really saving. I also was not clear if the intent was to actually purchase the system as three different orders, one from each group, or to pool it as one order. If your purchasing or accounting processes would require it to be separate purchases they may not be willing to do that with used or demo equipment as it potentially leaves them with part of a system if one party backs out.

Having similar equipment in the two spaces can make sense, however there can also be a tradeoff in an educational setting in that it means you only have one console model. In some cases it may make some sense to have analog and digital or multiple models of mixers so that there are opportunities for broader learning.

Unless your analog console needs to be replaced it probably also makes sense to carefully consider whether you want to invest everything into a 'new' console.

Just to clarify, if you received the equipment six months ago then the clock on the warranty probably started when you received it. That is one of the downsides of ordering equipment in advance. If you ordered through an authorized dealer and they are installing the mixer then the warranty period may not start until they turn the equipment over to you.

 

[lieperjp]

Well, it would be one order - with three groups paying for it. Easier to do in a smaller school. I'm not worried about a group backing out - once (that is, if) they sign off the funds will be transferred to the tech account. If the three components can't be purchased, it's unlikely we'd do the purchase.

Personally, if it were me making the call - I don't think it's worth investing everything in the new console - our Mackie 36 chan is only 4 years old and works fine - it's been in for repair a couple times, but it was minor stuff. However, our TD thinks (and he's right) that the digital console would make everything much easier - especially for our variety shows, etc. where settings can be saved and brought up with the push of a button. The other nice thing is that we don't really have anything other than a mixer and amp - the digital mixer would give us more flexibility with reverb, compression, better equalization, better preamping, more monitor sends, etc.

We are going through an authorized dealer/installer, however the equipment has already been turned over for our use prior to installation. The only components of the install that have been turned over/purchased, however, are the mixer and snakes. That's not really what I'm worried about, either.

I'm just worried about getting a bad deal - the company has mentioned something about selling us a demo but has not said for sure whether or not they would actually sell us a demo unit.

 

[TimmyP1955]

Do you already have a snake in place? If so, that makes a very good argument for an LS9-32 instead. It's less expensive, has better channel EQ, and has more faders (and channels). (Even if you needed a new snake, the LS9-32 would likely still be a little cheaper.

A digital mixing console gives you many advantages in addition to the great EQ, comps, gates, etc. Along with being able to save setups and scenes, you can also tie the audio and lighting consoles together with a Mac running QLab or a PC running SFX or ShowCueSystem. The computer can play your sound cues (including multiple cues simultaneously) and, via MIDI, recall scenes on the Audio and Lighting consoles. Very slick, and good training for those who might wish to do this in college or for a living.

 

[museav]

Very slick, and good training for those who might wish to do this in college or for a living.

I'll leave it up to the educators here to address this as well, but I have received comments from both college educators and professionals that they sometimes experience people who can work with all the latest and greatest equipment but are lost when faced with working with older systems and components that they are still very likely to encounter. I am currently working with a college on several campus facilities and systems and while they are moving toward consoles like A&H iLive, Digidesign SC48 and the Roland M-400, they currently have analog consoles in many of their systems. They are not going to have new students working the larger events or facilities and their Seniors working the smaller ones simply because a new student can operate the new digital consoles but can't work with any of the older analog consoles. And many community theatres, clubs, etc. are probably not going to be changing to digital consoles for some time.

As far as buying a demo model, typically a demo would be sold with full warranty and support. That would probably be something to confirm. I know from experience that demo equipment often gets opened up to see what's inside, put through its paces pretty well, etc. so it having the manufacturer's warranty would probably be of value.

 

[mstaylor]

I completely agree with Brad. Learning statte of the art equipment is nice and should be encouraged, you still need to be able to use the old equipment.

 

[TimmyP1955]

I completely agree with Brad. Learning statte of the art equipment is nice and should be encouraged, you still need to be able to use the old equipment.

If they can use a digital console, I don't think an analog will be a problem. Going the other way is an entirely different matter - I know plenty of folks who can't understand how their home A/V system's universal remote works, let along a digital console.

 

[museav]

If they can use a digital console, I don't think an analog will be a problem. Going the other way is an entirely different matter - I know plenty of folks who can't understand how their home A/V system's universal remote works, let along a digital console.

I have to disagree. I think the simple example is the fact that many educational and church applications see using scenes or presets as being an advantage because it allows for less knowledgeable or experienced operators. You can have someone to operate the console without their having to know how to configure the console or having any understanding of signal routing and assignments. As a result, many people who think they know how to operate a digital console really have a quite limited understanding including some aspects that are typically necessary to understand in order to operate an analog console.

Another aspect is people that have only used onboard processing and have never connected external devices to a console or had to setup and work with external processors. Or that have never worked without having processing available for every channel. There are other potential aspects, for example learning to mix without VCA/DCA groups and/or mute groups and using Group assignments instead. Have they ever charted a console since you can't just save the setup? Gain structure is another area, gain structure within the console may be something you don't even have to consider on a digital console but is typically something you may have to consider on an analog console.

As far as transitioning in either direction, in my experience it often comes down to addressing implementation versus general concepts. People transitioning from analog consoles usually have an understanding of the basic concepts involved and the difficulty is usually in learning the actual implementation, especially as digital consoles often differ significantly in how many aspects are implemented or accessed. On the other hand, transitioning from digital to analog can involve problems with basic concepts such as gain structure and interfacing with external devices, for example someone not accounting for effects sends and returns when determining the physical I/O required on an analog console because they have always approached it as internal busing on a digital console.

 

[TimmyP1955]

Gain structure is another area, gain structure within the console may be something you don't even have to consider on a digital console but is typically something you may have to consider on an analog console.

I disagree. If anything, owing to the nasty nature of digital overload, gain structure is more important in a digital console than in an analog console.

 

[mstaylor]

If they can use a digital console, I don't think an analog will be a problem. Going the other way is an entirely different matter - I know plenty of folks who can't understand how their home A/V system's universal remote works, let along a digital console.

I get complaints all the time about guys that come out of school knowing how to run digital sound boards or the lastest light boards but are lost hooking up simple systems because everything was always in place for them. Pull a kid out of a sterile place like Fulsail and put in on a deck at a festival where he has to put eight or nine dis-similar acts on during course of a day and in most cases he will be lost. He may be able to run the board but figuring out how to deal with an old Leslie or how to troubleshoot a rental backline is another story.

 

[museav]

I disagree. If anything, owing to the nasty nature of digital overload, gain structure is more important in a digital console than in an analog console.

I'm not saying that analog clipping is worse or addressing clipping at the console's A/D or input but rather gain structure through the console. I know people that have only used digital consoles that have never considered what the level is on a bus or how summing multiple signals may cause a bus to start to clip without any clear visual or aural indication. And gain structure gets more complex and awkward when using external processing on inserts, effects loops and so forth, a factor that is not usually relevant on a digital console using internal effects.

 

[TimmyP1955]

I get complaints all the time about guys that come out of school knowing how to run digital sound boards or the lastest light boards but are lost hooking up simple systems because everything was always in place for them. Pull a kid out of a sterile place like Fulsail and put in on a deck at a festival where he has to put eight or nine dis-similar acts on during course of a day and in most cases he will be lost. He may be able to run the board but figuring out how to deal with an old Leslie or how to troubleshoot a rental backline is another story.

This has nothing to do with the front end being digital or analog. It has to do strictly with a lack of education. In the days before digital consoles, complaints about grads of such schools were much the same.

 

[museav]

This has nothing to do with the front end being digital or analog. It has to do strictly with a lack of education. In the days before digital consoles, complaints about grads of such schools were much the same.

Agreed, however it is indicative of an education that focuses more on the equipment than the basic concepts and that favors learning 'state of the art' over a wider range of applications. I firmly believe that if you have the basics, you can always learn the equipment. But if you instead focus on learning to operate certain equipment then your skill set is greatly limited to those particular devices and likely not as broadly applicable. So starting with basics and then expanding on that usually ends up with someone better able to adapt.

In this case, an analog mixer can be a very graphic and direct method to teach and learn the basics of signal routing and assignment. It can also force people to learn to work with the minimum processing possible or to even work around not having any processing rather than relying on always having a gate, compressor, de-esser, etc. for every input. It's great to have EQ on every floor monitor send but if you've always had it then the time you don't can become a major struggle, better to have experienced dealing with that situation.

 

[RichMoore]

Or, another option........Mackie tt24........analog and digital.

Easy to operate....has presets......has recall....has internal effects.

Use with a digital snake........total investment around $11K.....without digital snake, around $5K.

Rich

 

[mstaylor]

This has nothing to do with the front end being digital or analog. It has to do strictly with a lack of education. In the days before digital consoles, complaints about grads of such schools were much the same.

I agree but with the advent of digital sound boards, sophisticated lighting boards and moving lights, moving back to a static light plot or an analog sound board is tougher and the skill sets aren't there. It's like learning to operate a computer using Vista and then having to use DOS to operate it, the skill set just isn't there.
I have a local college that I would help out doing their shows that would graduate kids that were excellent designors but anything over a plug or lamp lost them. All the instructors had either doctorates or MFAs and would call me to fix problems for them. I have no degree of any type. Thhey could produce excellent shows but some areas of technical theatre escaped them.

 

[TimmyP1955]

Or, another option........Mackie tt24........analog and digital.

Easy to operate....has presets......has recall....has internal effects.

Use with a digital snake........total investment around $11K.....without digital snake, around $5K.

Rich

Given the constant state of flux that Mackie has been in over the last few years (and the poor level of customer service that has sometimes resulted) , I would not consider a tt24 to be a wise investment. (And I certainly would not buy one new, given how cheaply one can buy a used one.)

 

[avkid]

Or, another option........Mackie tt24........analog and digital.

Easy to operate....has presets......has recall....has internal effects.

Use with a digital snake........total investment around $11K.....without digital snake, around $5K.

Rich

The TT24 is nearing the end of it's life.
Yet another victim of the LOUD way of doing business.