VL3500 Spot burning lamp ends

theatre4jc

Active Member
The title pretty much sums up what is going on. I've got a fixture that keeps scorching the ends of the lamp almost like it is arcing. However there is no other evidence of an arc so I have to assume it is caused by something else. What could cause this? Ballast, igniter, wiring? I use to be a VL certified tech so I am comfortable doing the Repai but just can't figure out where to start. Thought someone here may have a suggestion.
 
Once you get some corrosion on the socket, it will start killing lamps. Definitely replace the socket. Most of your major lamp distributors stock them. The socket is the SFc10-4. OSRAM part # 69004
 
Are you using also installing the small metal disks on each side of the lamp when you put it in the base?

I have discovered that if you do not crank those down gorilla tight they tend to arch really bad, that mixed with the fact the leads on that base are made out of tin foil can set you up for failure.

Personally I never install those disks.
 
Those "discs" MUST be removed. They can't be left on or the lamp doesn't seat correctly in the lamp holder. The only reason those are there are for some Fixture OEMs (not Vari-Lite) who don't use a socket, and use spade terminal connectors on wires instead. In those fixtures, you simply slide the connector in, and tighten the discs down on either side. The vast majority of fixtures use the SFc10-4 lampholder where you remove the two discs on the ends and snap the lamp into the socket to make the electrical connection.

Also- the metal is a solid Nickel alloy, not tin foil. :) It's the main metal used in almost all soocket contacts and lamp pins due to it's ability to resist heat and yet provide a really good electrical current.
 
Also note that all major manufacturers of moving lights consider lamp bases consumables. Prices average around $70 per base.
 
If list price is $70.00 per base, and the lamps list price is how much? How many lamps does it take after the heat damage is noticed to change a lamp socket in burning thru lamps? At some point a "broken lamp" should be theorized as to why it broke. Say an outer pinch failure because the weld to the monofoil got over heated? What cause this, could it be at times a lot of heat damage to the socket of the lamp? So if the socket of the lamp is heat damaged... won't the fixture lamp socket be just as effected??? Amazes me at times the "pro's" changing lamps don't ask themselves why even for easy troubleshooting, why a lamp failed or looked dim.

Would be really really if those qualified to change lamps to fixtures were certified that they knew about the lamps they were changing sufficient that they might be able to detecte a bad lamp socket properly when changing the lamp, and at that point swap the base, swap the fixture for a spare, or at least mark the fixture for non-use on the next show before getting it up and running. Would take a concept that those calling a lamp "broken" they were able to figure out why it broke amongst other lamp expert things. If I need to know how many ohms or what ever a HPL should measure or what ever that scale is I have no idea of, those doing more expensive lamps sould at least be able to find an Osram Tattoo and change a lamp socket due to it.

Bender and Wurth lamp sockets show arching and rust near the screw threads at the base of the lamp and less overall observable heat damage until really bad on the body of the lamp base. They don't function any better once bad, the damage is more localized in arc welding the lamp to the socket.

The Osram Tattoo from bad lamp base is a little easier to detect but unfortunately oftheen still ignored. Normally with a crew that just keeps sticking perfectly good lamps into bad sockets, such lamps stuck in them fail about 100 hours less each time. I have tracked bad bases thru up to eight installs before the fixture socket is sufficiently damaged enough that it won't function. (Sometimes it's even loose screws to the socket, bad wires to it or non-working fans.) When asked "base looked fine..., or didn't have time." So in a few hundred hours you will need to re-visit the light because it wasn't swapped for a spare fixture when damaged and no time... each time, and for each fixture on a tour no time for?

Bad bases can last inefficiently and inproperly for say five to eight lamps past the first indication of being heat damaged normally before they fail to work. Means more heat, dimmer light etc, but they will probably strike an arc for as long as they work and at times flicker away. Believe for Martin Mac 2K it's four lamps per socket, and for VL 3K, it's three lamps per socket if properly doing it. Unfortunately short of a sicker on the light, there is no way to track this amount of changed lamps per light. Thiis lamp base change also expected as per following the expected lamp life of the lamp. The industry got spoiled with past and up to the Mac 2K line of lights where the lamps would often last in a fixture double or more their expected lamp life, and bases more than that. These days the old Mac 2K's have problems with ignitors as their main problem.

Higher wattage lamps burn hotter, fixtures are more efficient I am sure in cooling, say if doused shutters all lamps go to half output mode unlike the VL-3K, so given the same lamp sockets in use they won't burn up faster. Still the main concept is those replacing the lamps to take a moment to look at the lamp they change and ask why it needed replacement. Perhaps there is a fixture or lamp socket problem one can fix?

I inspect all bad returned lamps as tracked by serial number by 10x power magnifying glass, but normally I can see whats' wrong with the lamp before I ever take a scale out to measure the arc gap. Problem is I'm normally months to days behind even seeing a bad lamp before I can ask if the lamp socket was replaced? Have a box on my return lamp tags to note such a thing as a base change recently introduced, but often its not checked. That or the changed lamp sockets aren't sent back with the lamp. Not a huge problem as it's somewhat rare shows take extra lamp sockets with them, and or that they do the change when needed.

Techies that don't observe the cause of a failure or just plain don't have time to even mark such a fixture with a bad socket, swap it out or care.... cost the industry in general possibly as much as their value in "pro" salary on a day rate for as many lamps can be spent per day on a large tour due to bad lamp sockets in bad lamps for each stop. details...
 
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Also note that all major manufacturers of moving lights consider lamp bases consumables. Prices average around $70 per base.

$70??? Holy moly... You need to call a few more places then. Those sockets are not that expensive at the bigger lamp distributors that do more volume.
 
Believe for Martin Mac 2K it's four lamps per socket, and for VL 3K, it's three lamps per socket if properly doing it.

Whoa, You really only get 3-4 lamp cycles before needing to replace a socket? My VL3000s have gotten through at least 8-10, and haven't replaced any as far as I can remember.
And some of those fixtures were purchased used.

That being said, I understand I am getting close to end of life on those sockets, And in my experience, and what I have been told is that Mac 2k burns through sockets much faster than VL3000. But it gets better if you replace both lamp fans at the same time as the socket.
 
Whoa, You really only get 3-4 lamp cycles before needing to replace a socket? My VL3000s have gotten through at least 8-10, and haven't replaced any as far as I can remember.
And some of those fixtures were purchased used.

That being said, I understand I am getting close to end of life on those sockets, And in my experience, and what I have been told is that Mac 2k burns through sockets much faster than VL3000. But it gets better if you replace both lamp fans at the same time as the socket.

(Forgive my above misspellings etc. in above post. Was a really quick post to get it out after a few errors in trying.) Note also, if creating a who owns the lamp sticker to put on the lamp for lamp changes and possibly warranty purposes...

Date, Who changed it, Fixture serial number, Reason for replacement, Lamp hours, Lamp strikes, and Lamp socket changed? In addition to logo of who owns the lamp and phone number. Also the serial number of what's in the box as at times mistakes happen and or if inspecting a hundred lamps in a day... gets painful to look for serial numbers on them as opposed to doing it if possible on-site with only a few changed. Such stickers help a lot in tracking lamps, ensuring the get back to you if mis-placed, and if a good sticker one can see it has been removed in not buying if seen on E-Bay. If a warranty claim, this info will be important as with also computer tracking the history of the lamp - when bought, from who and what Purchase order. Also when you get a new lamp, write it's serial number and lot number on the box so you know what lamp was installed into the fixture. Also helps in tracking what lamp is where or not returned after a show. Tracking lamp serial numbers is really useful. Say a truck gets into a crash, or shipping container with a show falls overboard. Or right out of the shop the video projector part of a DL-2 gets stolen... able to provide in addition to fixture serial number, the lamp serial number to the police also as with it's value. Lamp serial numbers have to be unique though.... Osram once in a while has had duplicates on the same lamp but normally is good for being unique. Philips and GE when given are often multitudes of serial numbers that are the same... no idea of why. That's why if possible take out a graphite pencil for a porcelain base and make your own serial number. Laser etched glass look for though, than write it with graphite also on the base in assuming an outer pinch failure for a single ended lamp and it gone. Otherwise if printed serial number duplicate for a single ended or relector lamp on a porcelain base, easy enough to add a letter to the serial number in tracking it uniquely. I buy Osram dual ended lamps because they have unique serial numbers in addition to other reasons. Using an engraving tool or scribe to make a brand of dual lamp w/o unique serial number might damage the lamp's base and void warranty. (Completely off topic - sorry)


Mark - I wasn't going to say "cost" in theorizing that if the lamp sockets were "valued" and bought that high, the lamps must also. Past talks I believe is that socket costs are kept lower so as to make it easier to replace. That Osram training program for lamp science should be expanded to classes the local rep. can do and train down to the college level. Though I'm sure you love giving the class. At least where I work, it was a great introduction to lamps which with time can become as standard as the free PDF's Osram offers on lamp science for each type of lamp. Though the xenon lamp manual and troubleshooting in general can use more work. Wish more people could take the time to read them. Great manuals and for free many on this website have learned from.

Wood - I have found in the last year or two VL-3K fixtures have stabilized a lot in burning thru lamp sockets. Must have been a software upgrade or something because I agree now as opposed to a few years ago there is a lot less of a problem with them. Perhaps the main show I was tracking never cleaned filters or something in at the time I pissed off VL in my findings completely after study - there was a huge problem a few years ago and not just with one show. It was for a long time problem in even frequently only taking one lamp to destroy a lamp socket. Was a expensive problem I suppose got fixed in not hearing back any further or more problems. I certainly wouldn't base a lamp socket change off a fan change, though often both might be needed if the fan went bad.

I trust the Osram tattoo to indicate a bad lamp socket as per used on VL-3K fixtures. 8-10 I see possible these days in lamps used given the above. Not sure why they are getting more dependable than they were but I agree they are. They still run a little hot but are becoming very dependable if at about 750 hours between lamp changes. Not as dependable in a lamp lasting often double expected lamp hours of a Mac 2K but that's because of the half burn mode when doused for lamps operating longer than expected lamp life but often doused while the audience seats.

Harmin/Martin initially uses a Bender & Wurth lamp socket in their fixtures. Initial problem - going back like fifteen years now if I remember correctly in the start of that myth was the keyway for the lamp in lamps installed up side down and bending the lamp socket so it wouldn't seat the lamp properly. That was right about the start of when I started inspecting lamps and I won't have known much about lamps back than. Throw the bad ones in the trash, if under hours, return for warranty. About the extent of training I got for what these days is my primary job amongst other stuff. Come a long way and hope to go further.
 
see attached photos.
 

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