Eliminating Geometry from High School?

[Footer]

Also, by taking a foreign language, I found I gained a better understanding of English. I had never been taught future perfect tense or past participles until I took Spanish. (Which may be the US's predominant language in a few short years.)

I wish I would have actually paid attention in spanish instead of dropping it after a year and 5 weeks. I can not tell you how many road shows we have in that are foriegn tours. We have a dance company that does a residency that most of them are either Italian or Spanish... a few don't speak english. Trying to tell the wardrobe chick to only used distilled water in the steamer took at least 10 minutes.

 

[ruinexplorer]

I do agree that our modern education system does a disservice to our students by not preparing them for the "real world". However, I disagree on many of the things that should be changed. No, I don't think that PE should be eliminated, however it probably should be altered by not focusing on sports but physical education. Also, in Arizona, some of the school districts have changed how to get your PE credits, including getting a half credit for marching band (since it can be quite exhausting).

I agree with the above that foreign languages are extremely helpful. Those of us who choose to only speak English are quite self centered, expecting the rest of the world to conform to us. We are one of the very few nations of the world who wait until high school to start offering a second language (when they know that learning a second language is more difficult). Many European countries are having their children know three languages. We have neighboring countries that speak different languages (even though Quebequoise is fairly regional). I agree that schools are falling behind in their language offerings. Chinese (Mandarin) should be a more regular offering.

The biggest failing of our educational system at this point is that it fails to teach students how to think. Studies on modern students who have grown up with the digital revolution have learned how to effectively use search engines, but they are lacking the skills in knowing how to disseminate between quality information and garbage (kind of like losing the ability to tell quality sounds as compared to highly compressed music files played back on crummy ear buds). It isn't the students' fault if they are never taught how to do it. After all, many school districts have to rely on test scores to evaluate learning, which means that they have to have empirical data driven from right and wrong answers (multiple choice questions). This is simple regurgitation, no thinking required. This may be why you would want to remove Geometry from your offering, since a portion of that is "proofs" where you actually have to think about how the answer is derived.

 

[Tex]

Why does geometry have to go away in order to offer entrepreneurship?
The major problem with high schools is that we try to stuff all the pegs, no matter what shape they are into a round hole...

 

[sk8rsdad]

At the risk of gross generalization, I would posit that today's public education is a natural consequence of a century or two of institutional inbreeding. Think about it for a moment. The average teacher is a product of the education process, first as a kid in elementary school, then a teen in high school, then college or university, then teacher's college, finally returning to teach the next generation. At what point in the process did they experience entrepreneurship? At what point did the teachers learn that there is any other shape of hole than the round one? So when these teachers become administrators, or politicians, the whole thing becomes a closed loop feedback system. The whole concept of adolescence can be argued to a product of compulsory education, and followed from child labour laws that produced a large number of no longer employable teenagers. We no longer even consider that it was ever any other way.

 

[seanandkate]

The average teacher is a product of the education process, first as a kid in elementary school, then a teen in high school, then college or university, then teacher's college, finally returning to teach the next generation. At what point in the process did they experience entrepreneurship? At what point did the teachers learn that there is any other shape of hole than the round one? So when these teachers become administrators, or politicians, the whole thing becomes a closed loop feedback system.

Teaching today is a quite a different beast then when I was on the other side of the classroom, but certain structures DO make it seem like things haven't changed that much. Want shakeup? Let's group students in classes by level of proficiency, not age. But I digress...

In answer to the original post: a resounding NO. From the article: "...great learning would accrue from dividing the class into two groups to see which group can create a more profitable business while retaining scrupulous ethics." The last thing I want my students to learn is that success is measured solely by profit, and that competition is better than cooperation. (I've also got concerns with how often "profitable business" and "scrupulous ethics" get on the same bus together, but that's a rant for another day.)

And students need to know that just because they don't see the value in something right NOW, that it doesn't mean that it HAS no value. Sometimes it's only in retrospect that we realize the value of learning Spanish, or taking geometry. And when people like Prof. Nemko publish an article saying that a course entrepreneurship should replace anycourse, he is merely showing his own bias. People that say "Subject x is useless/irrelevant" are actually saying "Subject x is useless/irrelevant because I found it useless and irrelevant." It's the height of hubris.

And relevancy is is harder than ever to pin down today than it has in the past. In many cases, we are trying to prepare students for jobs that don't even exist yet. I filled out a thick stack of computer cards in data processing to add ten numbers together, and I programmed in BASIC in Computer Processing in high school. Haven't had the need to do THAT again, but the processing logic that I learned and practiced there I have probably used thousands of times since and not even known it....

 

[museav]

Personal views:

Get rid of foreign languages. The rest of the world will always learn English just for us and you gain nothing from learning about other cultures, thinking in other ways and so on.

Get rid of PE, with a lower life expectancy there will be a greater need for new people in the work force as the ones already in it die off sooner. A lower life expectancy may also mean less drain on Social Security, Medicaid, etc.

Dump geometry. Also get rid of parallel parking, traffic circles, square and line dancing, going off on tangents and the movie 'The Octagon'.

Instead offer Entrepreneurship classes so you identify unmet societal needs such as no one knowing foreign languages, physical education and geometry.


On a serious note, it is interesting how people often think that they don't need something until they do. Take the example of doctor's not needing to know business as a nearby college made their reputation by offering an MBA program specifically for those in the medical profession as changing laws, processes, documentation requirements, etc. led to virtually requiring any medical practice to have significant expertise in related business, law and tax aspects.

 

[Nelson]

Dump geometry. Also get rid of parallel parking, traffic circles, square and line dancing, going off on tangents and the movie 'The Octagon'.

I wish that Geometry classes related more to real-life scenarios. Instead of spending so much time with theory, I would rather learn hands-on, practical skills that I will use on the job and later in life. That's a class I'd enjoy!

 

[mstaylor]

I thought geometry was my favorite class in school. I use it daily for a varity of reasons. For years I operated a sucessful contracting business and used geometry, algerbra and trig in many areas of construction. In the theatre world I use it also. I agree that you have to change some of the things you are teaching but the basics still need to be there.
The problem is great thinkers like the guy in the article saying idiotic things like competition turns us all into losers. You can't play dodgeball because it hurts a kid's self esteem. Zero tolerance rules put in place so administrators don't have to think. All these things make us lazy sloths that can't do things on their own.
When I was contracting I was always amazed when I hired guys that could not read a rule. Sometimes I would ask for a measurement like 48 4/8 instead of 1/2 just to see if they could reduce the fraction. Most could not, they would count marks and then be shocked when it was half. They wouldn't know that 11/16 was just short of 3/4. Now they want to take out geometry. Amazing.

 

[derekleffew]

I wish that Geometry classes related more to real-life scenarios. Instead of spending so much time with theory, I would rather learn hands-on, practical skills that I will use on the job and later in life. That's a class I'd enjoy!

Ah but perhaps the more important lesson to be learned in geometry class is not circles, triangles, square footage, etc.; but rather developing logical thinking. Sort of the "give a man a fish..." paradigm. Which is more important: knowing that one calculates the area of a circle by using πr^2, or knowing that π = d/r ?

...After all, many school districts have to rely on test scores to evaluate learning, which means that they have to have empirical data driven from right and wrong answers (multiple choice questions). This is simple regurgitation, no thinking required. This may be why you would want to remove Geometry from your offering, since a portion of that is "proofs" where you actually have to think about how the answer is derived.

Exactly! Successfully performing a proof in Euclidean geometry extends far beyond mathematics.

Q. E. D.

 

[chausman]

Ah but perhaps the more important lesson to be learned in geometry class is not circles, triangles, square footage, etc.; but rather developing logical thinking. Sort of the "give a man a fish..." paradigm. Which is more important: knowing that one calculates the area of a circle by using πr^2, or knowing that π = d/r ?

Syllogism and Detachment, that sort of thing.

It does seem a little sad that logic has to be taught to a person, to me.

And proofs...what would you say the general purpose of teaching proofs is? I'm just curious, how many of you use proofs...ever.

 

[derekleffew]

...And proofs...what would you say the general purpose of teaching proofs is? I'm just curious, how many of you use proofs...ever.

Ever ask your boss for a raise? Want the school board to buy you some new equipment? Have to defend/argue the validity of a statement you've made in a post on Control Booth?

You teach yourselves the law. I train your minds. You come in here with a skull full of mush, and if you survive, you'll leave thinking like a lawyer.

 

[chausman]

Ever ask your boss for a raise? Want the school board to buy you some new equipment? Have to defend/argue the validity of a statement you've made in a post on Control Booth?

But a proof like:

Given:
Segment AD bisects segment BC.
Segment BC bisects segment AD.
Prove:
Triangles ABM and DCM are congruent.

Notice that when the SAS postulate was used, the numbers in parentheses correspond to the numbers of the statements in which each side and angle was shown to be congruent. Anytime it is helpful to refer to certain parts of a proof, you can include the numbers of the appropriate statements in parentheses after the reason.

I do see people's point as far as the foreign languages. (I just wish they had more choices)

There seems to be a reason that we have certain classes, and we sort of need to have all of them. How do they decide "Math isn't as important as...". "Entrepreneurship is really more useful then...". And asking a teacher can sometimes just adds to the confusion. Don't most teachers say their class is better or more useful then another class?

 

[mstaylor]

Proofs are there so you can apply the rules in more than one direction or plane. Without understanding complimentery and supplementery angles you could never use a speed square. Any trade, welding, carpentry, plumbing all require geometry. I had a HVAC mechanic tearing his hair trying to figure an offset in his duct. I told him to multiply the offset by 1.414 and he looked at me like I was nuts. I told him he was finding the hypotenuse of an isosceles right triangle so you have to multiply by the square root of 2. He was amazed when it worked.
If you don't want to learn geometry don't rig.

 

[viking33]

Why not just make the school days longer and add another class like they have in Japan.

 

[mstaylor]

But a proof like:


I do see people's point as far as the foreign languages. (I just wish they had more choices)

There seems to be a reason that we have certain classes, and we sort of need to have all of them. How do they decide "Math isn't as important as...". "Entrepreneurship is really more useful then...". And asking a teacher can sometimes just adds to the confusion. Don't most teachers say their class is better or more useful then another class?

I can't read your proof but isn't knowing that the def. of vertical angles a very important concept? I still remember the SAS, LL, HL and other postulates, corrolaries and theroms. You are very knowledgable for your age but you are still young and dumb in other areas. That isn't a slam, just a fact of life.
I helped start a math tutoring club in HS and I heard the same excuses from kids I was teaching, "I'm no good at math"" I'll never use it"and "My teacher is stupid." I never had a kid that I couldn't help get better.
I told my son about this discussion, he's a welder, 18 and hated school. His reply was," Are they stupid? That is probably the one class you will use regularly. "
While you will never have to do a formal proof in the wild, you will do them in practical application. Do you need a 26 degree or a 50 from a certain location? Sorry. I can't find that answer because they took geometry out of my HS.

 

[chausman]

I can't read your proof but isn't knowing that the def. of vertical angles a very important concept? I still remember the SAS, LL, HL and other postulates, corrolaries and theroms. You are very knowledgable for your age but you are still young and dumb in other areas. That isn't a slam, just a fact of life.
I helped start a math tutoring club in HS and I heard the same excuses from kids I was teaching, "I'm no good at math"" I'll never use it"and "My teacher is stupid." I never had a kid that I couldn't help get better.

Thank you. I was thinking through some things, but rigging hadn't crossed my mind during class earlier this week. Yes some of it is important.

I think adding hours to a school day (at least in my school) would only add to frustration of many students. There is really only so much that a lot of students can do in a day, before they completely stop paying attention. I could be wrong, and it does depend on the school and students, but that's just my opinion.

 

[mstaylor]

Thank you. I was thinking through some things, but rigging hadn't crossed my mind during class earlier this week. Yes some of it is important.

I think adding hours to a school day (at least in my school) would only add to frustration of many students. There is really only so much that a lot of students can do in a day, before they completely stop paying attention. I could be wrong, and it does depend on the school and students, but that's just my opinion.

I agree that making days longer is not the answer, at a certain point the kids just shutdown. They need time for extracuricular activities, jobs and simple down time. They need fewer stupid rules and worry more about just teaching. They need to spend less time testing and more time teaching.

 

[blackisthenewblack]

I know tomorrow I will be struggling with angles in the shop for hours (label your technical drawings properly!), so I will be using my maths all day.

 

[Footer]

I agree that making days longer is not the answer, at a certain point the kids just shutdown. They need time for extracuricular activities, jobs and simple down time. They need fewer stupid rules and worry more about just teaching. They need to spend less time testing and more time teaching.

Yup. When I taught that was my thought as well. However, my kids minds nearly exploded when I started teaching algebra in a theatre class.....

 

[mstaylor]

Not to mention my math skills helped me get my wife of 25 yrs. She called me to tutor her in college calc which I had never taken. I taught it to myself so I could teach it to her. We started dating and finally married. If it wasn't for my background in HS math I wouldn't have been able to do that.