@Lion Heart One more thing to check:
Without any power applied, use your ohm meter to ascertain that neither your Brown nor Blue wires are connected to your ground,
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
220V needed from 110V supply
- Thread starterr8er4ever
- Start date
Without any power applied, use your ohm meter to ascertain that neither your Brown nor Blue wires are connected to your ground,
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
Lion Heart
Member
Yes, it's the same here in Canada.
It seems that both UK and US/Canadian have the same three-wire set up (appreciate 240v can also be 4 wire in US/Canada, but trying to keep it simple). So it would go:
UK Circuit:
1) 240v live
2) Neutral
3) Earth
US/Canada Circuit:
1) 120v live
2) 120 live
3) Earth
Now in the UK that neutral wire is required for the circuit to actually work. Without it there is no 240v feed. So, I'm hoping that having a 240v + neutral is essentially the same as 120v + 120v.
In which case I should be able to connect my three wires to 120+120+earth and it work the same as if it had 240V+neutral+earth.
RonHebbard above seems to think that this should be the identical equivalant (and also suggests checking that there is no feed between the both the live neutral and earth just in case (thanks for the great input Ron!!)
And of course, yes you would need a double pole breaker on the board.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
It definitely is not good.
Lion Heart
Member
That is a very good question indeed!! I'd need to check. Why, what are you thinking?
Inductance will affect impedance / current flow / magnetic flux / horsepower / work produced.
Taken to an extreme: 400 Hz. used to be common on aircraft allowing lighter weight cores to work effectively in transformers.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
As others have said, you have 240V between the poles of a two-pole breaker. If you're familiar with electronics, it might help to visualize this as being similar to a dual-rail power supply, say +12V and -12V. The neutral is equivalent to the 0V ground in between the two supplies. A 24V pilot light (or whatever) would get wired from +12 to -12 directly to get a total of 24V. It's nearly the same thing here, just at ten times the voltage and with AC rather than DC current.
For your lift, you'd wire the earth/ground lead to ground (obviously), and the two other leads to the two poles of the double-pole breaker. Neither one is neutral, so it is entirely arbitrary which wire for the lift goes to which pole of the breaker. Better, in my opinion, would be to install a 240V socket and wire a corresponding plug on your lift; that way, if you ever got a welder or large air compressor or something similar, you could just plug it into the same socket in lieu of the lift.
Edit: If the lift uses an induction motor, frequency differences may have somewhat of an effect on it. If it uses a universal motor (with brushes), which I suspect would be the case, line frequency variations within (rather wide) limits would have no practical impact. In practice, most 60Hz devices work just fine on 50Hz and vice-versa; exceptions are mostly those that rely on the line frequency for timing, like electric clocks or mechanical appliance timers (which operate at the wrong speed), and some vibratory motors such as may be found in hair clippers or shavers.
For your lift, you'd wire the earth/ground lead to ground (obviously), and the two other leads to the two poles of the double-pole breaker. Neither one is neutral, so it is entirely arbitrary which wire for the lift goes to which pole of the breaker. Better, in my opinion, would be to install a 240V socket and wire a corresponding plug on your lift; that way, if you ever got a welder or large air compressor or something similar, you could just plug it into the same socket in lieu of the lift.
Edit: If the lift uses an induction motor, frequency differences may have somewhat of an effect on it. If it uses a universal motor (with brushes), which I suspect would be the case, line frequency variations within (rather wide) limits would have no practical impact. In practice, most 60Hz devices work just fine on 50Hz and vice-versa; exceptions are mostly those that rely on the line frequency for timing, like electric clocks or mechanical appliance timers (which operate at the wrong speed), and some vibratory motors such as may be found in hair clippers or shavers.
Last edited:
Lion Heart
Member
Thank you for the input!!
I checked the manufacturer spec and it says 50/60hz, however the plate on the side of the motor says 50hz.
I checked the manufacturer spec and it says 50/60hz, however the plate on the side of the motor says 50hz.
@Lion Heart I'd trust the manufacturer's word for it for several reasons:
1; They know how hard they're working the motor.
2; They're, optimistically, warrantying their product.
3; The motor's manufacturer has to be sure they're fully protecting their motor, as the OEM, they can't predict the load your lift's manufacturer is going to place on their motor.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
1; They know how hard they're working the motor.
2; They're, optimistically, warrantying their product.
3; The motor's manufacturer has to be sure they're fully protecting their motor, as the OEM, they can't predict the load your lift's manufacturer is going to place on their motor.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
Lion Heart
Member
Thanks again!
I like the idea of making a 240v socket as I do indeed have an air compressor, so I could swap between them as required. I just checked the air compressor as well, induction motor, 2.2kw, 13 amp, 240v, 50hz.
I like the idea of making a 240v socket as I do indeed have an air compressor, so I could swap between them as required. I just checked the air compressor as well, induction motor, 2.2kw, 13 amp, 240v, 50hz.
Lion Heart
Member
So, in theory, on the basis of what's been discussed here you could make any UK (240v) appliance work in US/Canada simply by wiring the brown cable to live 1, blue (neutral in UK!) to live 2, and earth to earth?
With a double pole 240v break on the board.
so 240v live+neutral+earth is the identical equivalent of 120v live 1+120 live 2+earth?
It's that simple???
With a double pole 240v break on the board.
so 240v live+neutral+earth is the identical equivalent of 120v live 1+120 live 2+earth?
It's that simple???
@Lion Heart Basically yes, as long as the frequency is not important; the rotational speed of synchronous motors is a function of line frequency, some run in synch' while others depend upon a degree of slippage to create fields in their rotors.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
Lion Heart
Member
And this type of US/Canada 240v Live1+live2+earth set up would be 60hz? In the UK it is 50hz as standard.
So would a 50hz motor still work ok on a 60hz signal?
What would likely happen if you tried it, and it was not capable of working at 60hz? Would it just not work, or work strangely? Could it damage the motor during a quick test?
So would a 50hz motor still work ok on a 60hz signal?
What would likely happen if you tried it, and it was not capable of working at 60hz? Would it just not work, or work strangely? Could it damage the motor during a quick test?
If the motor is synchronous, it would turn faster; if driving a mechanical clock or appliance timer, the time would be inaccurate.
I wouldn't think a quick test would damage your 50 Hz. motor.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
A 50Hz synchronous induction motor will run hotter (and faster) on 60Hz. Assuming the motor is specified with sufficient margin, it shouldn't be a problem in practice in many cases. Certainly a quick test should do no harm. For an air compressor, not pushing the duty cycle I think should keep things under control. Replacing the motor pulley with a ca. 20% or 25% smaller one (to slow down the compressor) would also help, though in my opinion probably is unnecessary for most uses. There are plenty of people who use 60Hz tools and equipment on a 50Hz supply, and vice-versa, quite regularly without any difficulty.
Lion Heart
Member
That's for the input guys! Ok, so an update on this....
Decided this had to be tested. So connected the ramp straight into a double pole 240v breaker. Brown live to live 1, blue neutral to live 2, earth to earth - and it worked straight away!
The motor is definitely running noisier than before however. So I think it must really be designed for 50hz.
It takes around 60 seconds to fully lift a car, and the motor is only used to lift, not to lower. So it's not actually used 'that' much in the grand scheme of things. Minutes per day, max 60 seconds at a time. Hoping it should be ok!
But it seems to be fully 100% operating as expected other than that - HOORAY!!
Thanks for your input and explanations here, genuinely much appreciated. Without your help I wouldn't have had the guts to connect the two 120v lives to the UK live and NEUTRAL! But the theory makes perfect sense and is sound, and well explained here. So gave me a lot more confidence to give it a try!
A very happy Brit with a UK 240v car lift operational in Canada!!
Decided this had to be tested. So connected the ramp straight into a double pole 240v breaker. Brown live to live 1, blue neutral to live 2, earth to earth - and it worked straight away!
The motor is definitely running noisier than before however. So I think it must really be designed for 50hz.
It takes around 60 seconds to fully lift a car, and the motor is only used to lift, not to lower. So it's not actually used 'that' much in the grand scheme of things. Minutes per day, max 60 seconds at a time. Hoping it should be ok!
But it seems to be fully 100% operating as expected other than that - HOORAY!!
Thanks for your input and explanations here, genuinely much appreciated. Without your help I wouldn't have had the guts to connect the two 120v lives to the UK live and NEUTRAL! But the theory makes perfect sense and is sound, and well explained here. So gave me a lot more confidence to give it a try!
A very happy Brit with a UK 240v car lift operational in Canada!!
Lion Heart
Member
One more thing you could help me with with regards to this... For my testing I just wired it up to a 40amp double pole breaker that I have already, but obviously I want to replace this with a more suitable one!
I will be making the 240v socket for the car lift, and also the air compressor (to be used seperately). The ramp motor is 2.2kw, and the air compressor one is as well (and marked as 13 amp, which is the standard UK fuse size inside our plugs).
When they tested the car lift during installation back in the UK they just wired up a UK plug (fused at 13 amp) and tested it. But he recommended to install a 30 amp breaker (UK).
What size double pole breaker would be the best bet here? Is 20 amp enough???
I will be making the 240v socket for the car lift, and also the air compressor (to be used seperately). The ramp motor is 2.2kw, and the air compressor one is as well (and marked as 13 amp, which is the standard UK fuse size inside our plugs).
When they tested the car lift during installation back in the UK they just wired up a UK plug (fused at 13 amp) and tested it. But he recommended to install a 30 amp breaker (UK).
What size double pole breaker would be the best bet here? Is 20 amp enough???
Congratulations; if only your British car ran as well in Canada.That's for the input guys! Ok, so an update on this....
Decided this had to be tested. So connected the ramp straight into a double pole 240v breaker. Brown live to live 1, blue neutral to live 2, earth to earth - and it worked straight away!
The motor is definitely running noisier than before however. So I think it must really be designed for 50hz.
It takes around 60 seconds to fully lift a car, and the motor is only used to lift, not to lower. So it's not actually used 'that' much in the grand scheme of things. Minutes per day, max 60 seconds at a time. Hoping it should be ok!
But it seems to be fully 100% operating as expected other than that - HOORAY!!
Thanks for your input and explanations here, genuinely much appreciated. Without your help I wouldn't have had the guts to connect the two 120v lives to the UK live and NEUTRAL! But the theory makes perfect sense and is sound, and well explained here. So gave me a lot more confidence to give it a try!
A very happy Brit with a UK 240v car lift operational in Canada!!
Does your motor get unusually warm? I think not. If you were running it for hours at a time, and it was getting appreciably hot, I'd be concerned.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
