Chain Hoist wiring question

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Nathan.D

Nathan.D

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My theater just bought 2x 120v 1/4-ton chain hoists for a good bargain. They work, but the wiring they came with is held together by wire nuts, electrical tape, and prayers. Notably some old 10/3 cable was used to replace the cable that connects the pickle. This was achieved by leaving the ground disconnected.

Big question is this: these things have been running for probably as long as I've been alive on /3 and I'm fixing them as properly as possible so we can raise and lower our dead-hung goods more easily. Cost is prohibitive (<5k for backstage+8 shows, don't ask me how I do it) and it's gonna run me more than double to replace with proper L14 connectors; how high is my risk of death leaving the ground as-is and just using 120v edisons?
 
No pictures on hand, it's an old CM 300lb. Looks and works exactly like the newer ones as far as I know, would have originally used a L14-20 plug. Only difference is it's missing the ground between pickle and hoist, still runs as it should.
 
TBH you could probably have a CM Tech inspect these and fix them for not a lot of money. Electrical is the 3rd leading cause of fires in the US.
 
DuckJordan said:
TBH you could probably have a CM Tech inspect these and fix them for not a lot of money. Electrical is the 3rd leading cause of fires in the US.
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There isn't a snowball's chance in hell I could afford a visit, much less a repair, from any technician. I can fix it myself, and I know how to. I'm asking if not running the ground to the pickle will kill me someday.
 
DuckJordan said:
but you can afford an electrical fire or death of someone operating it?
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Please stop spamming the thread if you don't have any new advice or information. This is not an "is electricity dangerous" post, and being obtuse is not helpful.
 
Nathan.D said:
No pictures on hand, it's an old CM 300lb. Looks and works exactly like the newer ones as far as I know, would have originally used a L14-20 plug. Only difference is it's missing the ground between pickle and hoist, still runs as it should.
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What makes you think it "would have originally used a L14-20 plug"? L14 provides HHNG (120V OR 240V) and the hoist only needs HNG (120V only). Plugs of 5-15 or 5-20 or L5- are all acceptable. The pickle uses 115V from the hoist wired as "up" "common" and "down", best to use anything other than L5- or 5 for control receptacles.
 
derekleffew said:
What makes you think it "would have originally used a L14-20 plug"? L14 provides HHNG (120V OR 240V) and the hoist only needs HNG (120V only). Plugs of 5-15 or 5-20 or L5- are all acceptable. The pickle uses 115V from the hoist wired as "up" "common" and "down", best to use anything other than L5- or 5 for control receptacles.
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The original (cut) cables coming from the hoist to connect to the pickle are 4-conductor, and L14-20 is the only 4-conductor plug I've seen on other pickles. The hoists work fine without the 4th (ground) wire, and this is the entire point of the post: I'm wondering if it's okay to go with a 3-conductor and ignore the ground.

Edit: based on responses here, I'm likely to just go ahead with 5-15s if nobody comes up with a reason I need a ground wire to the pickle.

Edit2: see Pocket Pickles which are very popular in my area
 
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Not trained in chain hoist repairs, but a replacement whip and connector to restore it to its proper condition should be pretty cheap. With basic electric knowledge and referring to the owner's manual, you should be able wire it in quite easily without much cost.

THAT SAID -- you should really have these inspected by a qualified individual. If they're older than dirt and have been hacked apart or DIY'd over time, you should be concerned about the overall condition of the hoists regardless of just the whips. However expensive you think it is to drive them to a production rental shop and have someone inspect them, I assure you it's much more expensive if you drop something on someone's head. If you can't afford to properly inspect/maintain them, then you can't afford to own them.
 
It is possible, even likely based on age, that the original wire used was a 3 conductor with a 4th wire that was actual a 3/32” wire rope used as a strain relief and not a ground wire. @derekleffew is correct that all that is required is a common wire, up, and down wires. The use of the L14-20 is heavily influenced by the entertainment industry in the last 15 years. Most industrial used hoists done even use a connector and have the pickle hard wired into the hoist.


And send me photos, I’d be more than happy to see if I can offer you further guidance.
 
egilson1 said:
The use of the L14-20 is heavily influenced by the entertainment industry in the last 15 years.
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I'd say your timeline is just a tad off. It's my understanding that riggers of The Circus (Ringling Brothers, Barnum & Bailey) and The Ice Shows (Ice Capades, Ice Follies, Holiday on Ice) were the first to use CM electric chain hoists in the early 1960s. I'm sure in the early days they used whatever cable and connectors were lying around, but eventually settled into the "double Hubbell" "Dual Twist": L16-20 for power and L14-20 for control. Much later, the use of C7, P14 single cables with multi-pin connectors was complicated by the still-necessary need of local control at the hoist. Hence, pickles with either 3 or 4 pin XLR were used and still are today.

Now it appears the OP is leaing toward using 5-15s for both power and control? Very bad idea. I won't go into the reasons unless someone feels it necessary.
 
MNicolai said:
Not trained in chain hoist repairs, but a replacement whip and connector to restore it to its proper condition should be pretty cheap. With basic electric knowledge and referring to the owner's manual, you should be able wire it in quite easily without much cost.
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I've done heaps of electrical work on other equipment, no worries there.
MNicolai said:
If they're older than dirt and have been hacked apart or DIY'd over time, you should be concerned about the overall condition of the hoists regardless of just the whips. However expensive you think it is to drive them to a production rental shop and have someone inspect them, I assure you it's much more expensive if you drop something on someone's head. If you can't afford to properly inspect/maintain them, then you can't afford to own them.
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They're in great shape, it's only the control lead that's cut on both. I'm only concerned with making them clean and usable. As-is I have to use wire nuts every time I want to connect the pickle which is the worst solution IMO.
derekleffew said:
Now it appears the OP is leaing toward using 5-15s for both power and control? Very bad idea. I won't go into the reasons unless someone feels it necessary.
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I am interested in this, the hoists are already 5-15s power. I assume the "very bad idea" is in regards to plugging things in where they shouldn't go, which I've mitigated already. Maybe L5-20s would assuage you? Are there other concerns I should know about?
 
Nathan.D said:
Please stop spamming the thread if you don't have any new advice or information. This is not an "is electricity dangerous" post, and being obtuse is not helpful.
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***Comment struck*** Moderator paraphrasing "...don't be snippy with people trying to make sure you don't injure someone..."

As a C-M hoist technician I can tell you that there is a whole lot about inspecting, testing, and repairing that you are ignorant off, and hoists need to be inspected annually (OSHA requirement).
 
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derekleffew said:
I'd say your timeline is just a tad off. It's my understanding that riggers of The Circus (Ringling Brothers, Barnum & Bailey) and The Ice Shows (Ice Capades, Ice Follies, Holiday on Ice) were the first to use CM electric chain hoists in the early 1960s. I'm sure in the early days they used whatever cable and connectors were lying around, but eventually settled into the "double Hubbell" "Dual Twist": L16-20 for power and L14-20 for control. Much later, the use of C7, P14 single cables with multi-pin connectors was complicated by the still-necessary need of local control at the hoist. Hence, pickles with either 3 or 4 pin XLR were used and still are today.

Now it appears the OP is leaing toward using 5-15s for both power and control? Very bad idea. I won't go into the reasons unless someone feels it necessary.
Click to expand...

So the guys in the late 60’s who were working the ice shows were Roy Bickle and Rocky Paulson, the later being one of my mentors. You’re correct about the “double Houstle, but the L16-20 for control was not the connector used. It was usually an L5-15, as there were only three conductors for control, and there was no need to spend more money on the larger connector.
 
Not really relevant to the discussion, but...
We have a old (1950's?) CM motor in our shop that is used for stacking/unstacking boxes that has what I believe is a 6 wire pickle. I haven't quite figured out what 6 wires are needed for, but it is hardwired. I think maybe the brake is also controlled through the pickle?
 
Nathan.D said:
There isn't a snowball's chance in hell I could afford a visit, much less a repair, from any technician. I can fix it myself, and I know how to. I'm asking if not running the ground to the pickle will kill me someday.
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The short answer is yes, not having it grounded can kill you.
 
Nathan.D said:
There isn't a snowball's chance in hell I could afford a visit, much less a repair, from any technician. I can fix it myself, and I know how to. I'm asking if not running the ground to the pickle will kill me someday.
Click to expand...
I understand being on a thin budget but putting hoists into service when you don't know their history, have no idea if their internals are working properly or know the condition of their brakes is a questionable decision (in my opinion).
While I realize you want a quick answer, receiving one without a lot of cautions or additional commentary, is not something you will find here. I am shutting down commentary on this thread all together as it involves an unqualified individual asking for advice on modifying an overhead lifting device.
 
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