2-Way Radios

[Denny586]

I am looking into buying a couple Motorola CP200 Radios (or a cheaper alternative?) for use on some shows coming up... The question is do I need a license to use them, and could they possibly interfere with other emergency services portables (i.e. police, fire, EMS)? Also could anyone educate me on differences with VHF/UHF? I know it's the different frequency ranges they operate in, but what are some pros/cons to each of them?

--The main thing that I need in the radios is the ability to have a mic that has decent sound quality and enough volume to be audible over my PA system.

 

[Edrick]

Yes unless you use the GRSM band you need a license usually if they advertise UHF or VHF its in the business band and requires a license.

VHF is great for outdoor long distance communication that isn't obstructed where as UHF is great for going through obstacles (inside a building for example). You really never want to use a VHF inside a building unless you want short distance.

 

[avkid]

The CP200 is a good starting point.
If you use anything beside Multi-Use Radio Service you will need a license.

CP200's are programmable within a set band.

 

[Denny586]

The CP200 is a good starting point.
If you use anything beside Multi-Use Radio Service you will need a license.

CP200's are programmable within a set band.

So are you saying they could be programed to a frequency that doesn't require a license and still be just as reliable? And how would i go about obtaining a license if thats what it comes down to?

 

[avkid]

So are you saying they could be programed to a frequency that doesn't require a license and still be just as reliable?

Absolutely, if there aren't users on the same frequency nearby.

And how would i go about obtaining a license if thats what it comes down to?

More info can be found here:
FCC: Wireless Services: Industrial/Business: Industrial / Business Home

 

[DrPinto]

So are you saying they could be programed to a frequency that doesn't require a license and still be just as reliable? And how would i go about obtaining a license if thats what it comes down to?

If you know anyone who's an EMT or firefighter, ask them what local radio shop does good work. Contact them and see how much they charge to get you a frequency. A good shop can find out who is on what frequency locally and handle any frequency coordination that's needed. Building a business relationship with a local shop will come in handy down the road when you need radio service, accessories, or programming.

 

[bishopthomas]

I don't know of anyone with a license to operate their CP200 (including myself). Up until last year technically you were supposed to have a license to operate a wireless microphone. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

 

[Nelson]

Actually you are even supposed to have a license to operate in the GMRS band. Each radio user needs to apply for a license. The license fee is not cheap, either. I seem to recall it was close to $100 last I checked. MURS is the only service that I know of (that you would be able to use with CP200s) that does not require a license. There are five frequencies in the VHF band that are part of MURS. As long as you stay within the requirements of MURS (mainly being that you use a maximum output power of two watts), you are free to use those frequencies.

There is also FRS. Those are the Wal-Mart-style walkie talkies.

In our auditorium, we actually have a licensed UHF business-band frequency (and a repeater, but we don't use that in the auditorium). I also occasionally use MURS if the UHF frequency is tied up or I need two different systems in operation at once.

Just to review,
GMRS, General Mobile Radio Service, is a versitile set of frequencies in the UHF band. License required.
FRS, Family Radio Service, is a limited set of frequencies used primarily by consumer-grade walkie-talkies. They are UHF. No license required.
MURS, Multiple Use Radio Service, is a set of five frequencies in the VHF band. No license required.


EDIT: Either VHF or UHF should work fine in an auditorium. Even at two watts, either one should do fine. The advantage to UHF is that being a smaller wavelength, you can use smaller antennas.

 

[mbenonis]

I don't know of anyone with a license to operate their CP200 (including myself). Up until last year technically you were supposed to have a license to operate a wireless microphone. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I would. The FCC regularly goes after two-way users without a license, especially if they cause harmful interference. I see examples weekly.

There are five frequencies in the VHF band that are part of MURS. As long as you stay within the requirements of MURS (mainly being that you use a maximum output power of two watts), you are free to use those frequencies.

Right.

There is also FRS. Those are the Wal-Mart-style walkie talkies.

FRS is not legal to use for anything other than personal/family use ("Family Radio Service"). GMRS is also for individual use and cannot be licensed to a business.

General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) | FCC.gov

The bottom line is to operate without any type of license, MURS is your only option. This requires VHF radios, which you may or may not have (Motorola made the CP200 in both VHF and UHF, I do believe...avkid, please correct me if I'm wrong).

BTW, applying for a business band license isn't terribly easy to do. Last I looked, you have to do your own coordination and make a showing that your system will not cause harmful interference. The process is not exactly user friendly (even to folks who regularly walk through the maze that is the FCC website).

Sorry the news isn't so good!

PS, one more thing. If you end up getting into UHF radios that run power in the Watt category, watch out for wireless mics in the 500 MHz region. Their front end filter may not be good enough to keep out the UHF garbage. Bet 600 MHz would be OK though.

 

[venuetech]

FRS is not legal to use for anything other than personal/family use ("Family Radio Service"). GMRS is also for individual use and cannot be licensed to a business.

General Mobile Radio Service (GMRS) | FCC.gov

I am confused this FCC page states: Family Radio Service (FRS) | FCC.gov

Licensing
The Family Radio Service (FRS) is licensed by rule. This means an individual license is not required to operate an FRS device. You can operate an FRS device regardless of your age and for personal or business use so long as you are not a representative of a foreign government.

I do not operate FRS devices very often but on ocasion they do come in handy.

It was in fact a Motorola dealer that suggested that a FRS device would fit my needs.

 

[BNBSound]

There's a set of frequencies in the VHF band that are free for unlicensed used. They're called the MURS band (Multi Use Radio Service) and it's nearly identical to the FRS setup (Family Radio Service). No license, no problem. GMRS actually DOES require a license but it's not generally enforced. It's too much to explain here but jump on Wikipedia with those three acronyms and you should have a much better idea of where you stand.

 

[Nelson]

FRS might not be a bad way to go. I do know of business that use them (though I'm not certain on the legalities), one local business is actually a health center that uses them.

Pros to using FRS: Radios are cheap, no license required, multiple channels available.
Cons: Radios are usually very junky and may not be reliable. No protection from interference from other people using the same frequencies. Accessories, such as earphones, headsets, speaker/mics may not be available.

I love MURS, personally. With a 5/8 wave antenna (and only two watts), I can easily talk to my friends on the other side of the city. MURS also allows the use of business band equipment (often available used on eBay for very little money) as long as it only puts out two watts. CP200s most likely would satisfy MURS requirements as long as you can either buy two-watt versions or program them to 2 watts max. I'm not too familiar with CP200s, so check to be sure. MURS also doesn't seem to be very popular, so interference from other users is possible, but unlikely.

 

[venuetech]

According to FCC Report and Order, WT Docket No. 95-102, at 20(D)

proposing to establish a very short distance, unlicensed, two-way voice personal radio
service called the Family Radio Service (FRS)

D. Description, Potential Impact, and Number of Small Entities Involved. These
adopted rule changes will allow greater flexibility in the use of the radio spectrum, and meet
the needs of the public for a short distance, two-way high quality voice radio service. Small
businesses may be manufacturers or retailers of devices used in this service, or they may be
users of this service in their business activities.

 

[DrPinto]

According to FCC Report and Order, WT Docket No. 95-102, at 20(D)

I think that refers to something proposed back in 1995.

Dealing with the FCC to get a license without the help of a radio shop is like going to court without a lawyer to fight a charge. If you don't know how the game is played, you're sure to screw yourself in the end. It's best to pay someone who knows what they're doing.

The truth is if you're using only 2 watts inside a building on a MURS or FRS frequency, you probably will not be bothered by the feds. There's more of a chance of being bothered by someone else using the frequency.

Even if you do get a license, chances are good that you will be sharing the frequency with someone else. That's why there's CTCSS (PL).

I still say it's worth asking an EMT or firefighter what shop they recommend and go down there and have a talk with them. The sales people can help you determine what's best for your needs.

 

[venuetech]

The original proposal dates to 1995 this is the FCC order that established FRS.

Adopted: May 10, 1996

http://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Wireless/Orders/fcc96215.txt

 

[avkid]

The CP200 is still in production with 5 different band splits.
VHF: 136–162, 146–174MHz;
UHF: 403–440, 438–470, 465–495MHz

 

[mbenonis]

I am confused this FCC page states: Family Radio Service (FRS) | FCC.gov
I do not operate FRS devices very often but on ocasion they do come in handy.

It was in fact a Motorola dealer that suggested that a FRS device would fit my needs.

My mistake! I keep forgetting that they can be used for business. What is not legal is to (a) use non-FRS radios (e.g., CP200) on FRS frequencies, or use an FRS radio on GMRS frequencies without a license. You have to use the junky radios at low power.

 

[mbenonis]

Even if you do get a license, chances are good that you will be sharing the frequency with someone else. That's why there's CTCSS (PL).

Not that it solves or fixes interference problems--it just hides them from you.

 

[Denny586]

Would anyone have an opinion on these iCom radios?
What model they are and what they are worth? I know they are UHF 4W 16Ch.

 

[avkid]

Whatever model they are you definitely don't need all those features if you were looking at CP200's.

If you want cheap Motorola I recommend the XTN series.
They were recently discontinued so there are large numbers appearing on the market from dealers liquidating stock.
My current fleet is 10 VHF XTN units. (XV1100, XV2100, XV2600)