I have never found this to be true. We've run 6 scollers off one PSU (X2 for the other side) all daisy chained and havent had a problem not running them back.
Adding Color Scrollers
- Thread starterAquarius
- Start date
I have never found this to be true. We've run 6 scollers off one PSU (X2 for the other side) all daisy chained and havent had a problem not running them back.
willbb123
Active Member
Here's my set up (my REP Plot).
On electrics 2 & 3 I have 3 zones spanning the with of the stage. There are 4 source 4s in each zone. There is a Blue, Red, and an Amber. Then In the center I have the scroller. This gives me the most flexibility, I never have time to rehang between shows, and most of the time I am making it up as I go.
Before I changed it, the only back light was coming from the scrollers. This is fine, until you want to change colors. Most shows you don't want to see the scrollers change, so I would have to go black or bring up our downlight PARs.
For my space I make it work with 6 scrollers. I would love to have 12, so I could fade between two scroll colors. Unless you have an extremely wide or deep stage I don't see why you would need more then 6 or 12 scrollers total, at least until you get used to them. (course I haven't designed an original plot in over a year, I always have to use my REP plot because I don't have the time/labor.)
I tend not to rely on my scrollers. I do alot more concerts then I do theater shows. I am doing everything on the fly, and making sure the scroll is where I want means taking my eyes off the stage and my hands off the bumps/subs.
I think you will be hating life if you get all 28 scrollers that you want. Most of the time you want the color to be set when you bring up the light. Which means you have to make a mark cue, previous to the light coming up, which makes the scroller move. If you board does not do this automatically, it can be a pain in the
. I have 8 scrolls total and they can be difficult to keep track of, I can't imagine 28...I don't really like the idea of addressing all the scrollers the same. The strings are eventually going to burn through, and start to warp. This will cause the higher number frames not to line up property. You can compensate by adjusting them individually.
Have you read The Gafftaper Method?
The practice of returning the last scroller back to the power supply is almost as controversial as DMX termination, but shouldn't be.
The http://downloads.goapollo.com/Smart%20Color%20Manual%20April09.pdf clearly states:
Should you have a problem and need assistance, this will be one of the first things anyone will ask you.
I too, have run hundreds of shows without DMX termination or return line without issue. But I've also seen instances where the use of the above has immediately fixed a problem. Why gamble? If one can afford scrollers, one can afford one additional cable for each line.
An alternate view. The OP has 192 dimmers. I would set both outputs to 1-512, and address the scrollers as DMX 201>218. Using Port2 as 513-1024 means you have addresses 193-512 empty and "wasted." (Yes, I'm wasting slots 193-200, but I think it's easier to think of the fourth scroller's address as 204, instead of [193+3=196] or using two universes, [513+3=516] {if using moving light patch, it would be Univ#, slash, 004})....At college I'm running the bigger brother to your board, the 48/96 and they work great! I am using it the same way you plan to with the scrollers attached to the 513-1024 output. The thing you need to know is, by default, the 513-1024 output outputs 1-512. It's basically just another DMX 1-512 which is how most people like to use it. However do not fret! It's an easy thing to fix. First thing you need to do is go into Setup => 1. System Settings => 1. Number of Dimmers and set that number to 1024 (It's 512 by default I think.) Then you go to Setup => 2. Output Configuration => [S1] + 2 + [Enter] + [Enter] + 513 + [Enter] + [Enter] and then you're all set! You're now outputting DMX Channels 513-1024 on Universe 2Enjoy!
There's probably no operational benefit, but I always set "Number of Channels" and "Number of Dimmers" to the least possible maximum I am using. Although I round number of channels UP to the nearest 25, so as not to have partial lines on the screen. Maybe it's old school, from a time when boards ran better with fewer channels and outputs. I get annoyed when I see a console set as factory defaults, with all those unused channels and outputs. Too much (needless) information. YMMV.
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Not exactly. DMX Terminators are built with male 5 or 3pin XLR connectors. Returning the 4pin scroller cable to the power supply does two things: 1)Terminates the DMX on wires 2&3, but more importantly, 2)Reduces voltage drop. See this post: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/7714-color-scrollers.html#post91354, direct from the horse's (the blue pony is named Apollo?) mouth. Lots of good discussion in the same thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/lighting/7714-color-scrollers.html.
I definitely agree that cutting some scrollers in order to get a new console would be a GREAT choice. Although there's nothing wrong with an Express, a new console will make it much easier to control your scrollers and will also eliminate the 96 control channel issues.
Current pricing on ETC's Ion with a submaster wing panel is around $6k-$7k
ETC's new Element will not begin shipping until around July and expected to cost about the same as an Express (mid $3k-$4k range depending on options). Ion is a great console but Element is probably a better fit for a school.
A Strand Basic Palette with a channel upgrade would be another good choice for you in the same price neighborhood as an Element.
As for how much will it actually cost, see this article.
Wow- you guys are more valuable/inspirational than a theater tech class at our local university! It's good to know that questions regarding electrical and data circuits get correct and detailed answers even while most manufacturers are out for the weekend.
The value of the ControlBooth again proves itself!
And Derek nailed the reason for a 4-pin return line in his posting above. Electricity reacts the same way within theatrical lighting systems, scroller systems, and even hydroelectric powerplants. As it travels over distance, voltage drops due to resistance within the cable and other factors. Each connector in the 4-pin circuit adds a little resistance to the free flow of 24VDC, thus limiting it's maximum run distance.
There is some confusion as to why there are two types of color changer cable, each with a definite 'family' of products it works with. As previously mentioned, all conventional color scroller devices NOT in the ColorRam family have similar pin configurations within the cable. These product can and do work well together, allowing greater versatility within one's theater inventory.
I appreciate this discussion regarding dimming, console choice, and color scroller selection for your theater space, and ask that you keep us informed as to your ultimate choices and reasoning, Aquarius. This type of dialogue is very helpful for novice and seasoned theater technicians alike!
Thanks again for considering the versatile Smart Color scroller line!
Not exactly. The Smartcolor 7.5 can be fitted with a backplate that will fit a standard PAR64 can. As I said, the best thing to do is buy them with the Universal Mounting Plate (UMP) so that you can mount the scrollers on any fixture with a color frame size of up to 10"x10".
And remember, Aquarius, that a 10 inch PAR 64 actually holds a gel frame 10x10 inch dimensions. The aperture of the PAR can itself is more in the 8 inch diameter neighborhood than 10 inches. The Smart Color 7.25 has an aperture of 7.25 inches, yielding a sizable amount of light from fixtures ranging from S4 Jr to PAR 64 cans.
Thanks for the information, everybody!
Unfortunately, it looks like most of our budget for lighting toys is going to get evaporated into the budget for next year's set construction.
As a consolation prize, though, we are getting Vectorworks Spotlight.
I sure have learned a lot from this thread, though. I guess we'll try again next year.
Or someone could make a big donation to the theater department. You never know.
Unfortunately, it looks like most of our budget for lighting toys is going to get evaporated into the budget for next year's set construction.
As a consolation prize, though, we are getting Vectorworks Spotlight.
I sure have learned a lot from this thread, though. I guess we'll try again next year.
Or someone could make a big donation to the theater department. You never know.
theatrelighting
Member
As far as I know, yes, that is feasible. However, I have heard that you should not extend the 4-pin cable daisy chain from scroller to scroller more than 100 ft because you will have control problems. However, I could be wrong. Also, you should buy a terminator (usually around five dollars) to plug into the end of your last scroller on the daisy chain (if you are daisy chaining).
theatrelighting
Member
What you are referring to is called Head Feet, the length of cable that a power supply can drive in addition to it's load of effects devices. Every PSU is different, some can handle more and some less. If it does not say right on the device, it will usually say in the manual how many head feet a PSU can handle. Also know that this is usually the total for the PSU, so even if you use multiple outputs on it you still should not exceed the total number of head feet.
As far as termination goes, if you are using any "Chroma-Q Style" scroller like the chroma-q, Apollo SmartColor, or Wybron Forerunner then you should make a return run from the last unit back to the PSU. This helps keep the line voltage up and terminates the data signal. For Wybron ColoRam style devices, they don't require a return loop, in fact the PSU doesn't even support one. Also, I have never heard of them requiring termination in any of the documentation that I have read.
Excellent response Mr. Weisman. You may move to the head of the class!
But really, there are many techs (and an occassional specifier) that don't realize the importance of the return line. It isn't that the maker/dealer wants to sell another piece of cable, but that this return line does indeed support 24VDC across the circuit AND provide data termination back at the power supply (providing the PSU is equipped with this feature).Thank you for providing an accurate answer to the question, Alex. And for continuing to add value to this 'lil nook we call home. Kudos-
While we are talking about it, Keith, what is the limit on cable runs on the Apollo PSU's? I've been operating off of a 200 ft limit on each run with mine but then again I always end up much lower than that. However, I have not been able to find any kind of documentation on them.
As for the universal mounting plates, they were an additional $100 to each scroller when we priced them out. However, for an additional $19 a unit, we just purchased the 7 1/2" brackets and just switch them out when we need them on a larger unit.
As for the universal mounting plates, they were an additional $100 to each scroller when we priced them out. However, for an additional $19 a unit, we just purchased the 7 1/2" brackets and just switch them out when we need them on a larger unit.
You've been doin' it rite!
From http://downloads.goapollo.com/Smart Color Manual April09.pdf , page 5:
From http://downloads.goapollo.com/Smart Color Manual April09.pdf , page 5:
Good questions bdk,
The universal mounting plates are an added expense, but I think that figure is rather high compared to their printed MSRP. (About half the amount, actually.)
As Derek has linked the details, the real reason behind any type of recommended limit (in 4-pin cable length) has to do with the fact that 24VDC is being pushed through copper wire from the power supply through various devices, and back again to the power supply. The ability for 24V to continue cruising along within it's copper confinement is affected by the natural resistance of the conductor- the copper wire. Since it takes power to move power, great distances result in less power available to the device requiring it.
The same science that allows electricity to travel along copper paths also limits its ability to be as powerful when it gets there.
Think of it this way- an 18 wheeled tanker truck that receives its operating fuel from the large trailer would have less gas to deliver after driving 400 miles than it would after driving say, 20 miles.
Kapeesh?
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