Another Church Sound Thread?

[RyanBolitho]

Hey gents,

So my church just went under contract on an existing building!! (7 months to no more load in and set up?!?!)

The building is currently a bowling alley and would be stripped and renovated completely.

The sanctuary space is going to be 100 feet wide by 65 feet deep. Floor to ceiling is aprox 15 feet. It's an open ceiling, metal trussing and HVAC are present at the top, think commercial building. The stage will be a typical proscenium stage with a 4 steps up that are retractable. Aprox seating capacity will be between 450-500.

I would love to put in JBL PRX, here's why. We often do a few weeks outside in the summer as well as a few community wide events outside and if we could have powered speakers that is a big plus for us. We could simply un-mount them and take them with us! Here's the downside. If I use PRX that uses almost the entire budget for all things sound related.

We don't need to buy a bunch of sound stuff, we have a presonus 24.4.2, senheiser IEM's etc so we are pretty well set other than our main's and sub's, plus new cabling, drum shielding, sound dampening, etc.

Here's what we have now. We are currently running 2 Electro-voice LiveX 15's powered (1 year old), 2 really old (12 years) Mackie SRM450's and two really old (12 years) Mackie 15 subs.

So here's my question, would it be a terrible idea to downgrade and match our existing Electro-Voice LiveX's?

Maybe get 4 more tops and 4 of their 18" subs? Would that cover and how much am I loosing sound wise?

The answer I would like to present to the elders and building committee is lets bring someone in, however, in rural Colorado the cost to bring someone in is astronomical and probably not going to happen.

HELP!

 

[DaveySimps]

Congratulations on the new facility! If your entire budget would be blown by going with PRX, it tells me that your budget is not large at all. Based on the limited information you provided, I would be inclined to recommend that you expand your inventory of EV LiveX's so you have more help potentially covering the width of the room. More importantly, this would make available to you a larger portion of the budget for the new cabling, rigging, sound dampening, etc. Cabling and sound treatments can add up quickly, and the nicest speakers in the world would still sound bad in a building with terrible acoustics.

Some additional information you have not shared is what are the needs of your sound system? What will a typical week be like in the new church for the sound system? It sound like it might be a more contemporary type service with lots of music, but you do not say so for sure. You also do not list any provisions for feeds to other rooms (if necessary), or a listening assisted system which you legally must provide. Perhaps you have addressed these concerns. But they are just the start of the list of things you might need to consider for the new building.

~Dave

 

[RyanBolitho]

Thanks for the reply!

I priced out PRX at about 10,000. That's probably about what our budget is going to be. The LiveX is only 5,500!

We will feed out from an aux or subgroup to the listening assistance and to the video feed for the cry room and green room. I plan on just splitting that Aux two ways.

We are have a worship band consisting of 1 -2 electric guitars, 1 acoustic, keys, full acoustic drums, bass and 1-5 singers.

We will have 2 Sunday services as well as it being available for rent for seminars, meetings, etc.

Oh churches, the need to sound great loud and sound great at a whisper!

 

[DaveySimps]

Thanks for the additional info. Do you currently own gear that will cover the cry room, green room, and listening assisted system, or does this need to come out of your budget too? That is still unclear after your response. What I do not see listed is any kind of systems processor. With multiple speakers, you will certainly need one of those no matter which speakers you intend to go with. The PRX are certainly an improvement over the EV's, but it sounds like you might have a good deal more gear to buy in addition to speakers. To directly answer your original question, no, I do not think that is a terrible idea. You may wish to go with the EV's so you have money left for all of the other gear / building needs listed.

~Dave

 

[Koopdaddy]

Again the best advice is going to be hire a professional to help you out. I realize that will take money away from equipment budget, but in the end you will have a better system (provided you hire a good contractor).

You could spend $10k on a PRX system and end up with something worse then you already have...not because it is PRX, but because it doesn't address your needs, goals and space.

 

[museav]

Hey gents,

So my church just went under contract on an existing building!! (7 months to no more load in and set up?!?!)

The building is currently a bowling alley and would be stripped and renovated completely.

The sanctuary space is going to be 100 feet wide by 65 feet deep. Floor to ceiling is aprox 15 feet. It's an open ceiling, metal trussing and HVAC are present at the top, think commercial building. The stage will be a typical proscenium stage with a 4 steps up that are retractable. Aprox seating capacity will be between 450-500.

It sounds like this is going to be a permanent space and if so you may need to shift your thinking a bit in terms of things being installed more permanently and to code.

For example, on the speakers you probably want a system that will provide not only sufficient level and response for your services but also approximately the same sound throughout the listener area. With a basic space that is 100' wide, 65' deep and 15' high, and perhaps shallower once a stage or platform is incorporated, that could require more than simply two or four speakers selected based on other criteria. And it may be even more critical to do properly as it not clear if anyone is properly considering the acoustics of the space.

On the budget side, again think permanent install and the space. You are most likely going to have related power (especially with powered speakers), conduit, structural load, etc. aspects to consider that have to be incorporated into the overall space design. Who is addressing that and where is that money coming from? Then there are things like equipment racks, mix position furniture, speaker mounting hardware, floor boxes and wall plates, cabling and so on, who is defining that, how much will that cost and how does that affect your budget?

Another commonly overlooked aspect is HVAC noise. Chances are the heating and air conditioning system for a bowling alley was designed for different conditions than you will have in regard to both loads and noise levels. I don't know how extensive the renovation is in that regard but hopefully someone is addressing any related operational and acoustical aspects.

In general, it sounds like someone set a budget without first defining the related goals goals or assessing what it might really cost to achieve those which while common practice reflects a lack of understanding and unless the goal is simply to make some sound is almost universally a bad idea.

The answer I would like to present to the elders and building committee is lets bring someone in, however, in rural Colorado the cost to bring someone in is astronomical and probably not going to happen.

I may appear biased on this but the reality is that if you don't have properly qualified resources internally then the cost of not bringing in someone with the appropriate qualifications and experience can end up costing cost even more. One or two "We didn't think of that" situations may justify any associated investment. I understand the budget constraints many Houses of Worship face but I'm always amazed how many churches seem to feel that they initially "can't afford to do it right" but then can afford to do it over (and over and over) as a result.

FWIW, since you are gutting the space and ostensibly only working within the box defined, then provided that drawings and other information can be communicated electronically it may be possible for much of any consulting and design work to be handled from anywhere.

 

[temper]

I can't comment on the speakers, but I'll add two thoughts. If this is a permanent install with flown or wall mounted speakers, I would not want to be in a situation where I had to take them down for an event. It would be much better to get an additional portable system for this, and maybe use this in the youth room if you can't justify a system sitting idle most of the year (or just plan on renting gear for those several weekends).

The other thing I wouldn't love is flown or wall mounted powered speakers. I know some people love the idea, but I'd rather have the amps somewhere more accessible for maintenance. That's just me though.

 

[RyanBolitho]

Thanks for all the input!

Let me try to answer some of the questions.

For the green room and cry room we have TV's that are being installed and we still need to purchase the listening assistance.

For processing we were thinking of going with the DBX 223XS, currently we just run L&R out to either side and use the crossover built into the subs we have now.

Koopdaddy, you're in Loveland, any recommendations for someone in Colorado who has done well for you? My fear is I've never heard anything good about companies in Colorado coming in and doing a great job, a church in the area is a prime example of that!

Museav, we are planning on putting in a whole new electrical circuit in the building. Running good solid power everywhere that sound may be affected and making sure the lighting is on a different circuit!! This is included in the building cost and the sound budget is more towards treatment, reinforcement and cabling. Because we are putting the sanctuary where the bowling lanes are currently there is no HVAC in this area of the building, it's all being installed and considered part of the building budget, not sound. Once our drawing is complete do you have a reference as to who I might consider sending it to?

Temper, I agree, I would want to set it and forget it too! It's generally only 2-3 events per year that we would need to take it out. While it would be a pain, it might be our only option. Also, with having the amps somewhere else for accessibility etc, I do see the benefits there too, thanks for that input! It's in consideration!

 

[temper]

Thanks for all the input!
Temper, I agree, I would want to set it and forget it too! It's generally only 2-3 events per year that we would need to take it out. While it would be a pain, it might be our only option. Also, with having the amps somewhere else for accessibility etc, I do see the benefits there too, thanks for that input! It's in consideration!

Well, it's not only for the convenience, but honestly, more out of liability. Even though you may feel comfortable doing this and know what you are doing, the problem comes when let's say you're not around for one of these events, so the pastor asks someone else to get the speakers down and put back up, and they have no clue if they are hung right when they go back up (or they get up on a ladder or scaffold and don't realize the cabinets weigh 120lbs until the last bolt comes out). Unless you restrict this type of stuff to people who are properly vetted and trusted, it's just not worth it. Portable PA gear is cheap enough that I'm sure you could find some used gear that would fit the budget if you can't easily rent it.

As for the amps, what I've seen as a very standard setup is to put the system processor gear (eq, crossovers, etc) and amps in a permanent rack back stage or in a tech closet close to the stage. This way you can run electricity to just one point for sound (however many circuits you need) and you can put all the gear on power conditioners. If you buy a locking rack or put it in a locking closet this gives you the most security when it comes to a shared space.

 

[neotrotsky]

For my .02, Going "down" in quality may not be that damaging if you can get the sound in the right place. 100x65x15 is acoustically a PAIN! That's a very large, flat room. The biggest key is not getting the volume, but the clarity of the signal by getting the sound you want into the areas you need it. Besides, with something that large with a low ceiling height it may not be a bad idea to call in an acoustic engineer if you're not used to doing this kind of things for a living. I've done a few rooms like this, and it usually ends up relying on the use of smaller flown speakers done in area arrays with smart placement of subs to balance the sound without overpowering the room. You'd be surprised with how much you can get and what quality you can get when you stop thinking about "what brand is good" and start thinking "where and how much sound do I want in each area?"

The EV 15's are good speakers, and can start things off well enough, but 65' is a lot of area to cover and you won't get a decent spread without defining areas. The subs, while old, may definitely be worth keeping. The subs will give the system backbone and will keep strain off of your system so you can focus on clarity. Subs are expensive and I would *almost* recommend two more to give even coverage to the room. Remember, the purpose is to put the sound where you want it, and not to crank it up. Always install more speaker than you need, because if the system is balanced right you will never use all of it and that's a good thing to have headroom when you need it. Even if the subs are older and need repair, it may be worth refreshing them and saving the cash. If you have the gear and it worked before, you can make it work again as long as the repair cost doesn't exceed new.

If you think of the space in a zone setup, you can push the vocalists through not just the mains but favor the center fills, allowing the preacher or other vocalists to cut over the mix to the heart of the crowd where the people who need to hear it are. Flow speakers are your friend if you don't have to strike the system constantly. Even if you have to move them two or three times in a year, I would still focus on hanging those speakers.

A tricky room to be sure, but it can be done for 10K easily. A PRX system may not be in the cards because I don't think it's a fit for what you have, and what you would like.

 

[museav]

Once our drawing is complete do you have a reference as to who I might consider sending it to?

The audio, video, lighting and acoustics are an integral part of the building just like the AC power, HVAC, plumbing, etc. so they should be part of the building design process from the start and not something looked at after the basic space and building systems are already designed. The AVL systems and acoustics should be factored in when from they first start looking at the overall needs and goals for the project and developing room dimensions, space planning and so on as that is often when the impact on them and their impact on other aspects can be most effectively addressed.

FWIW, many churches elect to be ADA compliant but unless local codes state otherwise they are often exempt from ADA, including Assistive Listening Systems, except for areas used by other groups (third party run daycare or schools, spaces rented or donated to other groups for uses other than worship and so forth).

Ryan, I sent you a PM with a potential contact located in Boulder.

 

[TimmyP1955]

Shooting the short direction (which would not be my choice), you are going to need speakers that array well, as a single box per side won't cover the room properly. I don't know of any JBL that array well, and most other brands don't either. On the low end of the price scale, the Yorkville U15 and U215 array very well. On the other end are the Danley boxes. And don't forget acoustic treatment. A bad room can't be fixed by great loudspeakers.

And leave a couple of lanes intact!

 

[Koopdaddy]

Thanks for all the input!

Let me try to answer some of the questions.

For the green room and cry room we have TV's that are being installed and we still need to purchase the listening assistance.

For processing we were thinking of going with the DBX 223XS, currently we just run L&R out to either side and use the crossover built into the subs we have now.

Koopdaddy, you're in Loveland, any recommendations for someone in Colorado who has done well for you? My fear is I've never heard anything good about companies in Colorado coming in and doing a great job, a church in the area is a prime example of that!

Museav, we are planning on putting in a whole new electrical circuit in the building. Running good solid power everywhere that sound may be affected and making sure the lighting is on a different circuit!! This is included in the building cost and the sound budget is more towards treatment, reinforcement and cabling. Because we are putting the sanctuary where the bowling lanes are currently there is no HVAC in this area of the building, it's all being installed and considered part of the building budget, not sound. Once our drawing is complete do you have a reference as to who I might consider sending it to?

Temper, I agree, I would want to set it and forget it too! It's generally only 2-3 events per year that we would need to take it out. While it would be a pain, it might be our only option. Also, with having the amps somewhere else for accessibility etc, I do see the benefits there too, thanks for that input! It's in consideration!

Summit Integrated Systems does good work. We used One Way Up for our install.

K2 Audio is another to check out.

I also have good experience with AVE based out of Minnesota and AGI Professional in Oregon. Curt Taiple is another good resource.

Where are you located?

Hope that helps!
Jared

 

[museav]

Summit Integrated Systems does good work. We used One Way Up for our install.

K2 Audio is another to check out.

K2 Audio is a Consultant, I believe the others are all Contractors. Chris Rayburn is still at Summit but both Ray Rayburn and Curt Taipale are no longer at K2 Audio, they are each out on their own, Ray located in Boulder and Curt in Allen, TX.

 

[bishopthomas]

I don't know of any JBL that array well, and most other brands don't either.

Really? JBL is the leading manufacturer of line arrays. VRX might be a decent solution for them (though not a "true" line array). A step up from there is the Vertec 4886, which is a true line array and is a huge improvement over the VRX line. In a wide and shallow space like that the QSC Wideline (even the 8's) might be a good choice because of the wide (I believe 130 deg) coverage. I've installed the Wideline 10's in a large church and it really turned out nicely. These may be well above the OP's budget, but to say that JBL doesn't "array well" just means you're not familiar with their products.

And leave a couple of lanes intact!

Most definitely! When I read that it was a former bowling alley I pictured the pastor standing at the end of the lane in front of the pins. Maybe the youth department gets the lanes set up for "glow bowling" with the blacklights and colored pins. Could definitely be an outreach tactic; I'd consider going back to church if after every song I could bowl a frame.

 

[JohnD]

This doesn't apply directly to the OP, but there is a new article at prosoundweb that details some of the problems of system by committee.
Church Sound: Church Sound: Setting Up A Successful Loudspeaker Demo At Your Facility - Pro Sound Web

 

[RyanBolitho]

Thanks for all the info guys!

I've got some calls in to some different guys in the state based off of your references. The rough plan is keeping 2 lanes on the far end of the building, I'm hoping it passes the elders and congregation vote because that would be awesome!!

 

[TimmyP1955]

Really? JBL is the leading manufacturer of line arrays. VRX might be a decent solution for them (though not a "true" line array). A step up from there is the Vertec 4886, which is a true line array and is a huge improvement over the VRX line. In a wide and shallow space like that the QSC Wideline (even the 8's) might be a good choice because of the wide (I believe 130 deg) coverage. I've installed the Wideline 10's in a large church and it really turned out nicely. These may be well above the OP's budget, but to say that JBL doesn't "array well" just means you're not familiar with their products.



Most definitely! When I read that it was a former bowling alley I pictured the pastor standing at the end of the lane in front of the pins. Maybe the youth department gets the lanes set up for "glow bowling" with the blacklights and colored pins. Could definitely be an outreach tactic; I'd consider going back to church if after every song I could bowl a frame.

Neither VRX nor any line array of which I'm aware will have sufficient horizontal coverage. And a double hang will have comb filtering problems. They'll need boxes that are designed to be arrayed horizontally for broad coverage.

 

[museav]

Really? JBL is the leading manufacturer of line arrays. VRX might be a decent solution for them (though not a "true" line array). A step up from there is the Vertec 4886, which is a true line array and is a huge improvement over the VRX line. In a wide and shallow space like that the QSC Wideline (even the 8's) might be a good choice because of the wide (I believe 130 deg) coverage. I've installed the Wideline 10's in a large church and it really turned out nicely. These may be well above the OP's budget, but to say that JBL doesn't "array well" just means you're not familiar with their products.

There are a number of JBL products that array well vertically but in a bowling alley with the 'stage' on the long side it very well could be horizontal arraying and coverage that is the bigger challenge. The 'wide' coverage of 'line arrays' is sometimes a benefit but can also be a limitation in applications where either wider or narrower horizontal coverage is desired. It's also why you are seeing a hybrid approach of 'line arrays' with individual boxes being able to have different vertical and horizontal patterns being developed by some manufacturers.

 

[Koopdaddy]

Maybe it is just me, but when I envision a bowling alley I envision low ceilings. I dont know how much space is typically above in most bowling alleys but it seems like a line array would not work in this application. How can you get enough height for it?

What about the Nexo Geo S12 in a horizontal array with some delays further back? Or Meyer JM1P's?

Again just curious how it would work in a bowling alley type structure.