Doors zip tied shut

[StradivariusBone]

Quick question, I did some homework, but I couldn't find any threads specific on my particular situation.

Let's say a large, publicly accessible building has a large room in which they hold meetings and events that's surrounded by a hallway and has no direct exits to the outside (you have to go out of the room, and then out into the hallway/vestibule areas, then outside).

This room does not have any locks the 4-5 double doors, but there are offices on the back of it that do lock and are all single-door. Let's also say, someone found a reason to need the room secure overnight (no more than 12 hours), since if any exterior door is open, the room itself is wide open because the double doors don't lock.

Let's finally say, the solution to this problem was to zip tie every double door shut, and lock the office doors that lead into the larger room.

Would I be right to be upset about this being a hazard, even though the room (not the whole building) is unoccupied? Because I was/am. Just checking to make sure that I'm not crazy.

 

[chausman]

I don't know the code, but I'd say that is a very bad thing. You're blocking (presumably) fire exits.


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[josh88]

Think of it this way, what if somebody cut open one door, or managed to find their way into the locked off area. Then there was a fire blocking the way they got in, now they have no way of escaping the fire. Don't do it.


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[MNicolai]

You're correct to be upset.

First, are you certain that these doors do not have locking mechanisms? It's unusual, even in public spaces, for exterior doors to not have locking mechanisms, even if they are not used routinely.

The reason for not tying these doors shut is that generally doors in egress paths lock in one direction (someone cannot open from outside) but maintain their ability to freely be opened outward in an emergency situation (exiting the building during a fire). This is an acceptable way of locking a building because while someone can't open the door from outside, the door can still readily be opened from inside without unlocking it.

What zip ties would do is obstruct the doors' motion in both directions. Both entrance into the building is obstructed, as well as egress out of. This is dangerous, even for a temporary application.

My recommendation is to have someone stay on-site and babysit for security. I've worked art festivals held outdoors where the canopy tents are closed up each night, and then we'd hire a couple off-duty sheriff's deputies to walk the grounds throughout the night. I also believe we took out some ginormous insurance policy for the duration of the festivals (just in case). We've even done this for indoor events where the building can be locked down, generally when there are priceless works of arts on the premises.

Your application may not require someone armed with a taser and a gun, but it would at least need to be someone (or a couple someones spread across two shifts) you could trust who would not fall asleep on the job.

 

[StradivariusBone]

They aren't exterior doors, but they are considered fire escape, the building's design is a little strange. It's a big rectangle with a kitchen, dining room, classrooms and offices on the exterior wall, at each corner are exits. Interior to that is a hallway, and then at the very center of the building is the large event/meeting room. The doors to the exterior lock, but the doors to the event room do not, which I agree is really odd. Especially when you consider that the access to the control booth inside this building has completely unrestricted access.

There are multiple vendors who set up their wares overnight for a big sale tomorrow and the fear was that some of their sale items would be tampered with. This has happened in the past so it is a justified claim, but I couldn't rationalize saving arts and crafts in the name of someone's life. I was concerned that I might have been a bit overdramatic, but working in a theatre really makes me feel the responsibility of watching out for these situations more and more.

This building is a part-time job for me and after explaining my concerns to my boss, who agreed with me, we are going to pursue a better way to handle things in the future (my goal is that we install locks with proper panic bars). The site has had a adversarial relationship with their AHJ in the past, but the staff all recently took fire safety training, which specifically included crowd management during evacuations. I'm pretty confident we can come to a safe and universally accepted conclusion, it just scared the heck out of me walking in today and seeing that.

Thanks for the insight, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't overreacting.

 

[gafftaper]

The best thing to do is call the AHJ and ask for a suggested solution. To me this seems like a good way to break the ice and show the AHJ you want to do things the right way. Stroking the AHJ's ego is never a bad thing.

Also it seems REALLY unlikely that someone broke in the building and tampered with the arts and crafts in the middle of the night when no staff was there. It's far more likely that it happened during your setup time or morning of the event pre-show time in which case no amount of zip ties or overnight watchmen will help. I say staff the room a little better during these lull times before the event is officially open when some vendors are hanging around and you'll be fine.

 

[RickR]

If a door has an EXIT sign, do not block it.

 

[kevinrichie]

I believe the answer is short and simple, if that area is part of an evacuation plan for any other part of the building... the answer is no you can't do it. If folks aren't listening to you telling them this is unsafe, a quick call to the fire marshal will solve that.

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[BillConnerFASTC]

The means of egress - what the building and fire codes call the way out of a building - are not always simple. Without a plan, I couldn't begin to answer with any confidence. Can you dead bolt a room closed that is not occupied? Yes - but you may be required to post signs that say the door has to be unlocked when occupied. I just can't picture. Not OK to obstruct all of the means of egress (zip ties would be obstruction) if any part of the room is occupied or any part of the offices that egress through the room (?) is occupied. Can you post a drawing, even a napkin sketch?

 

[StradivariusBone]

The offices would theoretically egress into the hallway, but one office connects to a green room/library of sorts (which itself has two doors to the main hallway). Through the green room, you can access doors that have passages to either side of the stage (SR passage also has access to the amp room). There are hallways all around the large event room that exit to the outside at the corners.

It's a confusing floorplan, but my concern was that they did not secure all entrances with zip ties, some were still just simply locked. The hazard would come from someone unfamiliar with this setup wandering in from the office area into the main hall and becoming trapped in the event that a fire were to break out.

I will try to post a basic diagram later, but I must reiterate that I'm coming from a point of understanding so I can make better recommendations to them in the future. I'm not looking at this from the angle of 'rubbing someone's nose in it' or trying to be manipulative with the AHJ (whom many at this site have a terse relationship with for one reason or another). I'm not carrying animosity or anger of any sort. All I know for sure is that when I saw this, my gut instincts told me that it was unnecessarily unsafe.

My solution (especially from a security point) is to push for the installation of door locks with panic bars that meet code. If the need to secure the room is that great, then I think it's money well spent. I'm trying to gather as much information on the subject before making suggestions.

 

[JChenault]

The means of egress - what the building and fire codes call the way out of a building - are not always simple. Without a plan, I couldn't begin to answer with any confidence. Can you dead bolt a room closed that is not occupied? Yes - but you may be required to post signs that say the door has to be unlocked when occupied. I just can't picture. Not OK to obstruct all of the means of egress (zip ties would be obstruction) if any part of the room is occupied or any part of the offices that egress through the room (?) is occupied. Can you post a drawing, even a napkin sketch?

Bill
Just curious - is it safe to assume that any door(s) needed for egress will have an "Exit" sign associated with them? IE could I lock / block any door that is not indicated as an Exit?? Is it a requirement that all means of egress be marked with signs?

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Gosh you ask the hard ones. Wish I could give you a simple yes or no. Just reviewed this as a result of an unfavorable review on a new building where the AHJ asked for illuminated exit signs on the catwalks - like a bunch of them. From the 2006 IBC (still widely used because the economy has prevented many jurisdictions from updating to 2009 or 2012)

1011.1 Where required. Exits and exit access doors shall be
marked by an approved exit sign readily visible from any direction
of egress travel. Access to exits shall be marked by readily
visible exit signs in cases where the exit or the path of egress
travel is not immediately visible to the occupants. Exit sign
placement shall be such that no point in a corridor is more than
100 feet (30 480 mm)or the listed viewing distance for the sign,
whichever is less, from the nearest visible exit sign.
Exceptions:
1. Exit signs are not required in rooms or areas that
require only one exit or exit access.
2. Main exterior exit doors or gates that are obviously
and clearly identifiable as exits need not have exit
signs where approved by the building official.
3. Exit signs are not required in occupancies in Group U
and individual sleeping units or dwelling units in
Group R-1, R-2 or R-3.
4. Exit signs are not required in sleeping areas in occupancies
in Group I-3.
5. In occupancies in Groups A-4 and A-5, exit signs are
not required on the seating side of vomitories or openings
into seating areas where exit signs are provided
in the concourse that are readily apparent from the
vomitories. Egress lighting is provided to identify
each vomitory or opening within the seating area in an
emergency.

So generally, always required over a door on the way out, with exception one probably being the most common exception this group would use. For instance, a control room or office with just one door our does not need a sign. As stage, which is always required to have two separate means of egress - will have signs for each. My argument for the catwalk was that they were served by a single stair - one way out - and like U occupancies - utility - it was restricted access and the occupants are familiar with the space.

 

[marmer]

What's the occupancy of the big center room? I thought anything big enough to require multiple exits had to have latching doors, too. If they do latch, then adding locks and panic hardware hopefully wouldn't be too hard. And, while you can appeal to the AHJ to get a ruling, the truth is that if you and your boss aren't comfortable with it, that's a good enough reason to say no.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Requirements for latching doors has to do with a fire rated door (and wall). The arrangement - bast as I can fathom it - might not require fire rated separation.

I don't know but would guess that exit hardware - what a panic bar is - would run around $500/leaf installed. The bigger problem is if the doors are fire rated, adding hardware is tricky as the hardware must have been tested with the actual door. Technically, just changing a hinge or push plate can be quite difficult.

If the wall and openings between this room and the corridor is not rated, deadbolts and signage is probably the simplest way to go.

I'm still struggling with this arrangement and the corridor around the room. Are there or were there movable partitions to divide the large space into multiple smaller spaces?

 

[marmer]

Yeah, exactly. In my building any room big enough to hold several vendor tables is going to have fire rated walls and doors. And besides, everyone who's ever been in a public school knows you don't lock a fire door with zip ties, you do it with a chain and lock! ;-) Just kidding, of course, but we've all seen it.

 

[StradivariusBone]

So here's a very rough guide of the floorplan. The highlighted doors are ones that were zip-tied. This did include the kitchen, though there is direct egress in the cooking area as well as the dining area inside there. There is a door to the control booth from the hallway (however, it's not separated from the main room by anything more than a half wall). The door to the booth does have a dead bolt on it that remains locked at all times, except when the booth is occupied. The doors leading into the big space in the middle all are fire doors, but there are no locking mechanisms attached. They are push open doors with automatic closers. Capacity for this room is around 320-350 (I don't remember the exact number).

The offices and classrooms all have separate rooms within them. The room I didn't label behind SR is the green room library. None of the doors behind the stage had zip ties, but all are single doors that lock. The hallways all have egress points at each corner. This building does connect to another two-story building behind it (see top left).

So here's the big question- how to make this room secure without breaching fire code and spending the least amount of money. By spending the least amount of money I don't imply that I'm hoping to "go cheap", but I've seen too many instances of people throwing money at a problem, making more problems and then throwing more money until it goes away.

Again, not trying to start a fight with anyone here or get anyone into trouble. I'm trying to avoid giving away the identity of the venue for this reason, but at this point I do feel I should let you know that it is a house of worship. In any event, I'm trying to find an equitable and most importantly safe solution.

I just saw Bill's question about the partitions- No, there are none. The floorplan inside the large room is open, they set up chairs and tables as needed.

 

[marmer]

I'll be interested to see what Bill says. It seems to me that the best solution is to replace all the fire door sets with lockable fire door sets. I think that securing the fire doors as described is probably a code violation. I guess the architect or engineer didn't think that space would ever have to be secured. However, I wonder if there is some kind of restricted access exception when you can be certain there is no one inside -- maybe for construction situations or something.

 

[MarshallPope]

Just out of curiosity, would it make any difference (likely not code-wise, but maybe AHJ) if there were dykes tied to each zip tie? I know that I've seen doors that had to be tied shut mid-performance (broken latch on a fire escape door that kept blowing open) and we kept crew standing by with knives in case of emergency, so I wonder if providing a way to escape might be a safer route in the interim until something better could be implemented.

 

[StradivariusBone]

I guess the architect or engineer didn't think that space would ever have to be secured.

This particular building was constructed in the 90's, so it's not terribly old. It was originally a traditional worship building prior to expansion when it became the modern worship/multi-purpose room. I'm willing to bet that at the time they didn't see anything being placed in there that would be worth installing locking doors. If Bill is correct in that these doors are $500+, then that would've saved them a couple thousand off building costs. The interesting thing is that the newer sanctuary does have locking doors to the main hall with the proper panic bar hardware.

Just out of curiosity, would it make any difference (likely not code-wise, but maybe AHJ) if there were dykes tied to each zip tie?

In this particular case it would have not been possible for a person inside to cut the zip-ties in that manner. The only way I could think to escape from the way these were set up is brute force and I don't know if it would be possible for just anyone to do it. The zip-ties were not your run of the mill 1/4" wide ties, they were wider and thicker.

 

[marmer]

I would have guessed that it was originally the sanctuary. I think there's a perception about everyone being welcome and about no one being excluded that makes some churches uncomfortable with locks on sanctuary doors. If you can get in the building you can get in the sanctuary. I wonder if non-locking fire doors are actually a special order item?