Control/Dimming Element Limitations

[JHWelch]

I am looking at purchasing a new Light board for a high school, and I was trying to decide between an Element 60 500Channel and an Ion.

I know the main differences is in the physical encoders on the Ion as well as the difference in number of Channels.

Is there any other software or hardware restrictions on the element? The number of channels is totally just a software restriction that ETC imposed so I'm wondering if their are any others.

Also, I was wondering if people have any opinions of what board to get?

The highschool has 96 Traditional dimmers, several dimmer packs, no scrollers and not many special DMX devices, but may purchase some in the future, and rents them on occasion.

 

[SteveB]

I am in the process of "training" a high school soon-to-be senior on our Ion and lighting systems in general.

We have an Ion, he has an Element at his high school. We (myself and my 2 other programmers whom are helping the training process) have been frustrated by the limitations we know this student will be facing on the Element, having learned the Ion.

No encoders. No Direct Selects (as far as I can tell), no Snapshots, limited ML functionality and all ML Virtual Control driven. And many others. As well, we have touch screens, which his Element does not (it supports them, just basic LCD's though).

That said, for what he's doing and his schools budget and setup, the Element is a huge improvement over that last console and is in itself a great console for the money.

But the Ion add's so much more capability that if any thought is being given to adding moving lights or LED's, I'd state that it'll be worth it in the long run to get an Ion and 2 touch screens.

 

[JHWelch]

So would your reasoning be: get the Ion if we have the money to spare?

 

[techieman33]

So would your reasoning be: get the Ion if we have the money to spare?

It depends, if movers, LEDs or lots of DMX widgets might show up in the future then yes I would push for an ION. If you know it's only going to be conventionals, and maybe a couple of widgets then the element will be fine, and maybe that extra money can be put towards more fixtures or dmx widgets.

 

[derekleffew]

The biggest limitation I see is that the Element only allows one cuelist. When working with movers and especially when busking, I would find that an unacceptable hardship.
.

 

[BobHealey]

One element limitation: only 2 universes of DMX. 1024 addresses may sound like a lot, until you start adding in LEDs, movers, accessories, etc. Plus it makes it harder to put borrowed gear off in its own universe.

One big thing in the element's favor is the 60 physical faders. Do you foresee more preprogrammed use, or lots of on the fly, seat of the pants use? Adding fader wings to an ion gets expensive quickly, and the wings are either all channel faders or all submaster/cue stack faders, you can't have wings in both modes as far as I can tell (though it would be a nice feature to have one wing for channels, one wing for faders/cues).

I personally have some reservations about the Ion as its the oldest model ETC is currently producing (all other EOS based consoles were introduced after it), and if I was buying and had a choice, would be waiting a year to see if it gets a refresh like the EOS did this year.

 

[sk8rsdad]

Given a choice I would pick an Ion over Element pretty much any time. Element has been stripped down to make it easy to learn how to use. This means they removed all sorts of features I find essential but they deem unimportant for the market that would be interested in an Element. I'm not sure the encoders are the deal breaker for me but so many things I take for granted are not there. If I never had them I might not miss them, but since I know they exist I would hate to lose them.

 

[TheatreTeachre]

I should say first that I have no experience with an Ion.

We bought an Element about 3 years ago, and I've been very happy so far. It's user friendly for the students, and we run mostly conventional lighting, so I don't run into problems with channel limitations, only two DMX universes, etc. I have run as many as six Selador Vivids, two movers, and two Right Arms with no problems. We do tend to do a lot of "live mixing," so to speak, so the copious submaster faders are a boon.

I would ask yourself what your priorities are. Are you trying to build a program that sends kids to college for tech theatre, in which case an Ion might be a good choice just for the experience? Or are you trying to build your own program with kids who may not have a lot of theatrical experience before high school or aspirations after? The user friendly nature of the Element would be a draw then.

But of course, having not used an Ion, I'm only speaking from one side of the coin.

 

[xander]

Can I just say, I hate questions like this. If you want to compare a Strand to an ETC to a Martin, etc., that's a valid topic. But to ask about two consoles in the same line is just silly to me. The ION is better than the Element. Hands down. There is no doubt about it. Which do you have the budget for? That is the one you should get. If someone can afford an ION and buys an Element instead, they are silly. I do most of my programming on EOS and IONs, and every so often when I sit behind an Element I am constantly disappointed by it's limitations.

My $.02
-Tim

 

[duquesne]

You are going to need to think hard about what your needs are, because depending on your program either could be the right board. First, if you are rolling in money buy and Ion. It is simply a more robust desk, but that doesn't mean it's best for you. You might be better suited saving half your money and buying more fixtures.

First: The big drawback: Element does not support discreet timing or multiple cue lists. While the button geography and lack of encoders are a small drawback when comparing Element to Ion, the lack of these two features are severe hinderances to your programming possibilities when using intelligent fixtures. Discrete Timing: if your rig is only conventionals, not having discreet timing will probably not bother you because you can use multipart cues as a work around. However, as soon as you introduce a multiparameter device this becomes an issue (what if you need color time to be different from intensity time or focus time?) Multi-Part Cue List: Mostly for busking in my experience, so it really depends on what you do a lot how much this matters. There are a lot of workarounds (keyboard shortcuts for buttons that don't exist on Element, or using a magic sheet to fake Direct Selects), but the absence of Discrete Timing and Multiple Cue Lists suggests that Element is intended to be a primarily conventional desk.

Second: My Story with an Element 40/250: I've got about 75 conventional, 10 LEDs and 2 moving heads, and if it weren't for the gaps listed above I would love my Element. I would like encoders, and buttons for the palettes, but since my rig is mostly conventional it's really not that big of a deal for me. Since I don't have a high number of intelligent fixtures I don't run into address issues. I would like to be able to record palettes {by type,} but I just set up a group that has all my intels and use that to record palettes. My venue is small, and we wouldn't have those 10 LEDs if we had gone with the Ion, which would be really silly because then I would have had way too much board for my rig. But oh what I would give for sweet sweet discrete timing.

Looking at your description I would think buying the Element and some additional gear probably makes more sense for your needs, but again, if budget isn't an issue go ahead and get an Ion.

 

[SteveB]

So would your reasoning be: get the Ion if we have the money to spare?

If you have no Source 4 fixtures, then I could see adding some more modern conventional lighting instruments to the system, thus an Element and fixtures.

If you have plans or desires to move to LED's and especially movers, then the money spent now will be worth while later.

Note that to get max use of an Ion, you would probably want a fader wing (40 fader at about $1900) as well as touch screens. I've harped on the usefulness of TS's for a few years now, not every body agrees, but now with OS version 2 and the incorporation of Magic Sheets, touch screens become even more useful and a time saver. Do a demo with one TS and on conventional LCD to test drive.

EDIT: And since both touch screens as well as Magic Sheets are supported by Element, the combination can somewhat alleviate the limitations of the Element control functions as compared to an Ion.

Bottom line on that is between the Ion (base model at around $8000), a fader wing at $1900 and dual touch screens at around $1400 and you are now at around $11,000 +. Lot's more money then a $5000 Element. That $6,000 equals 20 S4 ellipsoidals, so hard choice.

 

[MarfaLights]

I'm in the same boat as JHWelch. We will upgrade our Express 48/96 soon and demo'd the Element. All conventional now; will add LEDs, maybe movers. The Element makes it obvious how to select a conventional channel or submaster which is helpful for our community groups with little tech experience. On the other hand, I'd rather get more board that would last longer than outgrow it in a few years. Our ETC sales rep says he sells mostly Ion to the larger high schools in Texas. I'm spec'ing the Ion in our grant applications and crossing my fingers.

 

[sk8rsdad]

Given the purchase is a year or so from now, you may want to future-proof the spec.

Eos Ti and Gio are based on Windows 7 embedded and support multi-touch displays and device drivers for modern peripherals. Ion and Element use Windows XP embedded which is getting very long in the tooth. ETC has not made their plans known about the future of Ion and Element. Eos Family Software v2.0 is already showing some divergence between Eos Ti/Gio and Eos/Ion/Element which will likely widen as time goes on. Assuming there is a redesign, it would be nice if there were an upgrade path for existing users but that is getting way ahead of where we are today.

There are rumours of an Ion PC (provoked by the recent release of Congo PC) which would be one way to fill the gap. Element lacks the multi-console support needed to truly take advantage of it though.

In any event, Element is a great console for the niche it is designed to fill and will continue to fill that niche for quite some time. SteveB is absolutely correct in cautioning against putting all the budget into a console when there are other areas that need attention.