Vintage Lighting Hub vs Altman

[BGW]

I'm on winter break right now, and I arranged to take home a variety of fixtures for documentation. This thread is aimed at comparing Hub Electric fixtures to their Altman counterparts. https://skydrive.live.com/redir.asp...C9157DE99DE0C85A!105&authkey=!AIemYMNGIEaHcHA This link has many photos with descriptions.

There's very little information available about the company or their products- so this thread is basically my observations and comparisons. Most of Hub's fixtures appear to be clones from other manufacturers. The fixtures I've brought home from BHS date from 1972 and are all clones of Altman fixtures. I can't read the Hub cat. numbers since they were penned in on the labels and have faded/been covered up over time, so I refer to them by their Altman numbers.

In short, (late) Hub fixtures are very careful copies of Altman's catalog. Most parts are very similar but not identical- however, the yokes and knobs are indistinguishable between the two brands. One other apparently identical part is the refector housings on the "360"s. The Hub casting has the same mark (see pictures) as the Altman one, but is much cleaner and of higher quality.

On the "366" fixtures, the Altman has 3 cast pieces whereas the Hub has only a cast stovepipe. The rest of the fixture is made from stamped steel equivalents of the cast Altman parts. An interesting note is that the Hub fixtures run much cooler than the Altman twins. The steel is stamped in such a manner that it's actually very hard to dent the Hub fixtures- most parts are domed or doubled back for strength.

The Fresnels are identical save for lenses and paint.

Perhaps the most interesting thing I've noticed is that the Hub fixtures all have higher-quality optics than their Altman counterparts. The Hub "366" and Fresnel have lenses stamped Kopp Glass, but there is no label on the "360" lens. All of the lenses are of great quality: they don't have that greenish tinge of the Altmans and they lack the wavy ripples of the Altman lenses as well. The unlabeled "360" lens is the best. I took it out and cleaned it and examined it at length, and I can truely say I've never seen a more perfect lens. There are NO imperfections, I was blown away. It's perfectly clear. After I cleaned it, I took a few photos (from weird angles to factor in the optics) and you can't even tell it's there. It's really a marvel- better than the S4 and Colortran lenses I have available to compare it to.

Sorry for rambling. In short, if you have to choose between Hub and Altman (which I sure hope you don't since they're both TERRIBLY outdated), go with Hub. They're higher quality, run cooler, and are easier to focus (perhaps because of the quality optics?) than their Altman counterparts. It's been very interesting to play detective and tear these fixtures down as far as they'll go for comparison- I hope someone else will think it's interesting as well.

 

[Nelson]

Interesting comparison. By the way, you're starting to remind me a little of Mr. ship (in a good way!).

 

[ship]

Interesting yes, optics - Altman and Altman did go Green for a period, but in a bad way. Not sufficient pool of stuff compared, even if Hub didn’t go green in lens. Good though to see someone starting out in seeing gear and observing differences. Already discussed this topic but refreshed now.

I see your casting questions and say you have observed something really important. Seen it a lot and even at times taken a deburring tool to the rough edges to help in cooling a bit. PS. while hard to find in Wikkee (what ever it’s called in new technology for me), Derek did just recently post a full line Hub catalogue from 57' thru like 70' in all their products that I borrowed. Have a full read - really good read and even has an article from Fuchs’ in it.

Hard to say on the texture black color if pre-1962 era Altman. I now have some of the I think Altman #3300 Lekos that one would think are first generation Altman Leco but they have a little more of a gray color than the Altman Texture Black 360 series I have also seen a lot of. Hub #8763 or Altman 360 series Leko? Don’t know other than in dating. If Altman, it has to date between say 1958 and 1962 for that color. If Hub, it has to date to post 1968 and I believe a single reference to it more like in 1972' - see the Hub catalogue posted on this forum’s Wikee.

I think it entirely possible in having worked on around 50 exactly similar texture black fixtures already from various sources, that Altman 360 series at first was texture black - even though my suspected to be #3300 Lekos are a different color. (Sent one to Derek, hopefully he will come out with more info on it.)

With Hub - they are known by way of design similarities and lesser castings of them - often only minor changes say in venting to be direct copies. Have a #8764 from Hub - almost the same thing as a Kliegl #1365 series Leko, slightly different venting holes. All three the Altman (possibly Century still), Hub and Kliegl as with LECO #807 version from the late 50's use the exact same lamp cap and are otherwise mostly similar to the Kliegl design.

Possible that perhaps Kliegl sold off their old castings for the #1365 series Leko? Plausible that Hub later bought up the now very popular 360 series Leko casting from Altman? Very I think - especially given the Hub stickers on some I have seen. Perhaps about the time that the Altman 360Q was in development - getting rid of a few old castings might help in that effort? Don’t know.

Otherwise, there has been a lot of non-litigated direct copying done thru the years, and possible that Hub just got away with a direct copy of an older radial Leko. As often with Hub, they were selling ten year old gear as modern during a time of change. Seemed to work for them - see their catalogue that even had c.1936 gear like the Kliegl #1165 sold into the 60's by them as modern.

Or another concept is that perhaps Altman was making the 360 series Leko for Hub under licence in the early 70's. Or Hub making under licence from Altman. Currently working on a c.1911 or perhaps 1928 PC fixture of 8" size. Every part about it says it was made by Major, except that there is no Major in the castings and no name plate. Literally from lamp socket assembly and how it’s done to how assembled. Except for a slight difference in the focus knobs, it is a Major fixture - already worked on two of them of the same size and era. Again, them darned red knobs - in this case painted wooden knobs as opposed to China black knobs from Major. Most major and minor brands of light during the period had their name on the fixture somewhere especially on the castings, - not even an indication of name plate in this case. Suspecting LECO brand even - given the red knobs on the fixture and lack of identification. When did LECO start as a brand anyway? Major make it for them perhaps?

A 8" PC fixture given it's most likely 2Kw probably doesn't date before say 1916 and specifically before 1911. I also have a 6" PC fixture from Major - very similar and has the same lamp socket as the one with the red knobs unknown. (Think you have problems in 60's gear - Imagine finding some alive from 100 years ago in knowing lighting gear from that period.) TBA is two more PC fixtures I have some or many of the parts two. Wooden knobs are a good thing in ability to have turned on a laith. Finding some replacement knobs for other gear - very difficult.

So back to your either Hub or Altman Leko’s. Possible they are Hub - especially likely if they have Hub stickers. Supplemental fixtures to the inventory, or all from the same time? One would think all would have the Hub decal, but they do wear off with at times limited amount of residue. Were the Hub a later thing added to an Altman inventory, was it all Hub? Only past buying records can tell as with telling me about the LECO #1700 Leko. Dig deep.

Otherwise, you have two options. I still see as viable a Altman Texture Black pre-62' 360 series of Leko. Makes it for dating say between 58' and 62'. That when your theater was getting gear or did they get gear from someone else which becomes a problem? Otherwise, if you see Hub name plates and your theater dates to about 1970ish, it’s all probably from the same source. Consider that a favor - I collect gear from multiple sources and don’t have that single buyer fall back in figuring out stuff. This much less often I’m getting stuff from secondary owners.

On the Fresnels - Never seen a Hub Fresnel... Totally cool in seeing that decal and amazing it’s intact given where it is.. Other fixture obviously missing it’s lens assembly. Square first than octagon for the gel frames.

Hole patterns on the rear of the Fresnels between Altman or Hub probably is similar as with the old and used up castings on the 360 series Lekos. Won’t determine the brand in this case - but the hammertone brown verses I would think still texture black will for a Fresnel.

On the Altman #366 yep got one and if hammertone brown, it is. Other one - got one also Century #1577? 8” Leko 8x16? c. Mid-Late 1954-1959; 1Kw P-28s Medium Pre-Focus Lamp. Think that’s what it is.

Final notes on the filament in reflector series of photos is something Derek I believe pointed out in a past post about why I was getting a more linear bench focus to some of my old Leko’s. Your photo’s show this problem with concept also in why you won’t be able to get a good bench focus from them. You have linear filament lamps installed into what was once a bi-plane filament reflecting source. Look at the length of the filament verses how much light is lost by the hole in reflector and that filament itself.

Answers - nope - been converting a lot of them lately to lobby sales GE brand frosted Reveal 100w A-19 size E-26 lamp based fixtures for homeowner use. Even spent the night in converting ½" aluminum plate by way of hole saw and a lot of drilling and tapping replacements for 1/8" thick plentiums under the lamp socket for the thicker ones now made. Lamp caps I was working on were for G-22 based lamps that while a VL-1KA lamp will work - not a big market in sales on inefficient innefficient LECO #1700 fixture. Best to make 100w fixtures out of them for the estate with an amazing bench focus for what it is. (My liability in doing so - completely resurfaced and wired fixtures and again my personal liability in not a thing to try at home or think easy and less than like ten hours per fixture to do in labor at this point.)

Derek made an important note as I’m not sure but don’t think anybody makes a Bi-plane EGE upgrade lamp at this point which would be even fairly efficient. Granted - yes I have gotten a good bench focus off an axial focus Leko, depends on the size of that cut out and probably age of fixture in needing a wider hole. Find a brand of lamp that sells a EGE with bi-plane filament and you will eek out more light. That’s a problem but not as much on these later lights as first generation Altman types that these of the Hub series might or might not have. Could be fine - normally I leave the end users to bench focus.

 

[ship]

Interesting comparison. By the way, you're starting to remind me a little of Mr. ship (in a good way!).

Don't call me MR.' instantly brings me back to the military when I would get fresh from boot camp people calling me Sir. Pushups - begin now 25x the norm and five more for the Corps.

But yes, I have a lot of experience lately in defining such fixtures. Very valid questions and some black hole in the industry about if Hub or Altman for the say 58' thru 62' era. This and for like say 1970 Hub selling the Altman 360 line as per their own. Noted casting problems but still could be Altman or Hub. Seen some even Altman Hammertone Brown series Lekos with not as much casting problems, some. Possible that Altman sold off their old castings to Hub?

 

[derekleffew]

...PS. while hard to find in Wikkee (what ever it's called in new technology for me), Derek did just recently post a full line Hub catalogue from 57' thru like 70' in all their products that I borrowed. Have a full read - really good read and even has an article from Fuchs' in it. ...

The catalogs are under the entry Hub Electric Company, but I don't think there's anything specific to the 1972 fixtures under discussion; most of the catalogs are much earlier.

It seems to me Altman wasn't concerned about its identity as a brand until at least the 1980s/90s. Many other companies (including Colortran and ETC) sold its fixtures under their own name. Thus many could have or are/were using Hub fixtures thinking they are Altman. Or anything generic/un-marked is likely Altman, but as you've discovered might be something else: Little Stage Lighting Company, Capitol Stage Lighting Co., L&E, LECO, and so on.
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...Possible that perhaps Kliegl sold off their old castings for the #1365 series Leko? Plausible that Hub later bought up the now very popular 360 series Leko casting from Altman? Very I think - especially given the Hub stickers on some I have seen. Perhaps about the time that the Altman 360Q was in development - getting rid of a few old castings might help in that effort? Don't know. ...Possible that Altman sold off their old castings to Hub? ...

I don't think so. Altman released the 360Q in 1974, but continued to also sell the 360 until 1979? I think. It just doesn't make sense for a manufacturer to sell a casting to a competitor. More likely just not financially viable to sue another over a copy infringement. Kliegl Bros. was unique it seems in making units that no one wanted to copy.

When did LECO start as a brand anyway? Major make it for them perhaps?

I thought LECO was in the 1960s. As the legend goes, the owner/founder of Grand Stage Lighting was a Chicago stagehand when he started the company in 1947.

 

[ship]

I'm still a barbarian in finding the catalogue section of the website. Did you post the Century/Strand catalogues PDF's sent to post?

If one searches the catalogues, no not persay 72' but there is reference for a part code in the latest dating like 70'. I have thoroughly read these catalogues physically in my hands before I gave them back to the theater. Might yet get them back if not sold off. None the less, I did see data on this Altman type of light listed in the catalogue - not much but in a list of part numbers.

Thus the question in buying up old castings from other brands.

Fair debate in others and this brand not doing such a sale to this brand for a casting.

Overall, fixtures from the 50's thru the late 60's are hard to define for who did what in copying. That can be said.

Of the fixture sent, I think at least for opening concept - is it an altman #3300?

 

[derekleffew]

I'm still a barbarian in finding the catalogue section of the website. Did you post the Century/Strand catalogues PDF's sent to post?...

Century Lighting, Strand.

(Rest assured than an alphabetical listing of all wiki entries is still very much in progress, but is taking longer than anyone could have ever anticipated. http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/suggestions/20741-wiki-usability.html )

 

[mstaylor]

I would have to check again but I have a closet of assorted old instruments. I believe I have some Hub fresnels, Century/Strand fresnels, a variety of ERS fixtures and even a few of the infamous EC [-]para-elipsepheres[/-] Parellipspheres. The ERSs are everything from 6" short throws to 6x22s. I even have some old scoops.