Riding an A-Frame Extension Ladder

[kiwitechgirl]

I am just curious, of all the people who won't roll around on ladders, how many roll around in lifts (ie. Genie AWP/IWP style)? Be honest if you answer.

Happily I don't ever work in venues that have the big rolling ladders - in fact I think they're now illegal here in NZ - but when I have in the past I refused to be wheeled around on one, no matter how much I trusted the people on the bottom of the ladder. I'm usually pretty happy to be rolled around in a genie; it does to a certain extent depend on the lift and the people at the bottom of it though! There's one Genie in a venue I work in that I won't be rolled around in - and I'm not alone in this as while it is perfectly stable, it really doesn't feel it - but then the flip side of that is that there's another venue which has a Cougar lift and I'm completely happy to be rolled around all the time in that as it's exceptionally stable.

Just to add another layer, what about tallescopes? They're illegal here (for some stupid reason which we've never been able to fathom) but I used one on a daily basis when I was working in England and again, I was generally happy to be rolled around in it provided it wasn't up too high and I trusted the people on the bottom - people who won't be rolled around on an A-frame, what about one of these?

 

[mstaylor]

What is a tallescope?

 

[DaveySimps]

They are a handy tool when you cannot afford a Genie.

~Dave

tallescopes by Aluminium Access Products

 

[Charc]

Many hours on the ladder later... everything in the air is done!

Once you figure it out and develop systems, it's not that bad. I'd say the worst part was being sick.

The ladder on wheels approach is in fact tried and true, but things woulda moved a lot faster on a rolling scaff tower.

 

[cdub260]

The ladder on wheels approach is in fact tried and true, but things woulda moved a lot faster on a rolling scaff tower.

Tried and true does not automatically translate to safe. "Because that's the way we've always done it." is not sufficient reason to engage in unsafe work practices.

Try to bear that in mind as you move forward in your career.

 

[DaveySimps]

Tried and true does not automatically translate to safe. "Because that's the way we've always done it." is not sufficient reason to engage in unsafe work practices.

Try to bear that in mind as you move forward in your career.

I could not agree more.

~Dave

 

[jwl868]

US OSHA ladder safety tips

Portable Ladder Safety Tips


OSHA regs on ladders:

29 Code of Federal Regulations

1910.25 Portable wood ladders

1910.26 Portable metal ladders

1910.29 Manually propelled mobile ladder stands and scaffolds (towers)
"...All scaffold casters shall be provided with a positive wheel and/or swivel lock to prevent movement."

1926.1053 Ladders
"...Ladders shall not be moved, shifted, or extended while occupied."

The OSHA ladder regs are not consistent about movement of the ladder while it is occupied. The General Industry regs (29 CFR 1910) are silent on the topic. But the construction regs (29 CFR 1926) are explicit: "Ladders shall not be moved, shifted, or extended while occupied."


Joe

 

[fredthe]

Just to add another layer, what about tallescopes?

At one time, tallescopes were available in the US, and they seemed (to me at least) to be a reasonable compromise between scaffolding and a ladder. However, they are now only available in the UK (AFAIK). Does anyone know why they disappeared from the US?

-Fred

 

[fredthe]

1910.29 Manually propelled mobile ladder stands and scaffolds (towers)
"...All scaffold casters shall be provided with a positive wheel and/or swivel lock to prevent movement."

1926.1053 Ladders
"...Ladders shall not be moved, shifted, or extended while occupied."

The OSHA ladder regs are not consistent about movement of the ladder while it is occupied.

To me, this seems perfectly consistent. A ladder can have wheels. If it does, they must be locking. You can't use them when the ladder is occupied. You can only use them to position the ladder when unoccupied.

-Fred

 

[Dionysus]

Ontario OHSA

83. When a ladder is being used it shall,
(a) be placed on a firm footing and secured against slipping;
(b) if the ladder is between six and nine metres in length, be securely fastened or be held in place by one or more workers while being used;
(c) if the ladder exceeds nine metres in length, be securely fastened or stabilized to prevent it from tipping or falling;
(d) when not securely fastened, be inclined so that the horizontal distance from the top support to the foot of the ladder is not less than one-quarter and not more than one-third of the length of the ladder; and
(e) if the ladder is likely to be endangered by traffic, have a worker stationed at its foot to direct such traffic or have barriers or warning signs placed at its foot. O. Reg. 67/93, s. 83.

89. A scaffold mounted on castors or wheels, other than a movable working platform to which subsection 94 (1) applies, shall,
(a) have a height which does not exceed three times the least lateral dimension of the scaffold,
(i) measured at the base, or
(ii) measured between the outriggers;
(b) be equipped with a suitable braking device on each castor or wheel; and
(c) have the brakes applied when,
(i) any worker is on the scaffold or the working platform of the scaffold, or
(ii) the scaffold is unattended. O. Reg. 67/93, s. 89.

Inspectors I've talked to confirmed that this rule applies to any work platform of that sort (a ladder with wheels).


26. Sections 26.1 to 26.9 apply where a worker is exposed to any of the following hazards:
1. Falling more than 3 metres.
2. Falling more than 1.2 metres, if the work area is used as a path for a wheelbarrow or similar equipment.
3. Falling into operating machinery.
4. Falling into water or another liquid.
5. Falling into or onto a hazardous substance or object.
6. Falling through an opening on a work surface.

26.1 to 26.9 talk about the need for guardrails, etc, and the need for travel restraint, fall restraint, fall arrest, and PFDs.


If I wanted I'm sure I could dig up way more...But it's a HUGE document, with links to other documents. And I don't care enough.
It should also be noted that it is required when climbing a ladder to maintain
"three points of contact" at all times. Thus you cannot carry anything in your hand.

 

[gafftaper]

It all comes down to Fred's basic point. These ladders are not designed to be used they way they are commonly used in our industry. That makes them illegal to use according to OSHA standards. Furthermore this is AMERICA. You have rights as an employee. If you are told you have to use a dangerous ladder, or if your employer refuses to buy you something else you have a very strong case to file with OSHA against your employer. You can't be fired because you are protected by industrial safety whistle blower laws. You have the right to not be required to risk your life using illegal equipment.

Why should you be required to risk your life so that "the show can go on". It's been done this way for a long time, but we can change it if we want to. Stand up for yourself. Don't accept that the only way to do your job is the dangerous way. I don't see Directors, actors, designers, artistic directors, or anyone else risking their life so that the show can go on. Why should YOU? Are you expendable? Is your life worth less than the cost of a scafold to your employer?

Unfortunately we are our own worst enemies. We accept that this is the way it's done and I'm the one who has to climb the ladder of death so that the lights can be hung. This is NOT the 1500's and you are not a slave. Your life is far more important than any silly little show. Stand up for yourself. Draw the line and ask your board of directors or artistic director to come in the theater and show you how safe the ladder is to work on. If they won't buy you a scaffold because it's the right thing to do, point out the financial benefits. If you die how much will they have to pay your family after the lawsuit for the OSHA violations? If you are injured how much will the settlement be? Or they could purchase a safe way for you to do your job for $600. I don't care how poor your theater is you can squeeze $600 out of the budget somewhere, somehow. I assure you if your artistic director was the one climbing the ladder they would find a way to buy a scaffold by the end of the week.

We had one of these scary old ladders in college. A few years ago I applied for the job. I told them in the interview I would not take the job if they did not agree to purchase a scaffold. While I didn't get the job, I meant what I said and I would not have taken it without a scaffold. My life and my family are worth far more to me than any job or show. I encourage you to do the same.

If you are a student and you are asked to climb one of these ladders at school. I beg you to call the districts Risk Management office and report it. There is no excuse for students doing dangerous work on an illegal ladder.

You have rights! Stand up for yourself and claim them. If everyone stood up and said enough is enough, we could get rid of all those old ladders by the end of the season.

 

[renegadeblack]

1) To whomever it was who asked the question, I very often ride a genie at trim height. I've also occasionally ridden one up at height because with the outriggers get in the way. There's one very specific location where I have to do this and one side of the genie is against a wall and the outriggers are out on the other side... the genie we had before that one had no outriggers and has been condemned by the fire marshall...

2) I don't do ladders. I refuse. They scare the crap out of me. One time there was no one else I could send up the ladder so I started heading up to replace the lamp in a S4. The bottom of the box fell out, lamp smashed to the floor, and I took that as my cue to come down.

The only time that I did something hazardous on a ladder was putting some wires back up over the crown molding after a show, probably a 30-foot A-frame and I had been going at this thing for about 20 minutes trying to push the wires up with a pole and eventually, was so grounded and at peace with the world, that I stood on the little platform on the top. When I started the reason that it took so long was because I wouldn't do that, but eventually, it happened. The little old lady who was watching and waiting to lockup making all sorts of ooh noises when the wires fell didn't help either,

 

[shiben]

The college I am at right now has 2 Aframes, and a genie which is never used because the battery is worn out and no one wants to buy a new one. Our current space has a trim of 16'. I have been up and pushed around in all of our devices, and i find it rather terrifying. Is the general consensus that this is illegal in the US? I feel like extension ladders are kind of our fate in our space, what with 3/4 of the lighting positions above seating, and I dont like that much either.

 

[BillESC]

A stage I frequently work at has a Genie lift and we've come up with the perfect solution for rolling/moving the unit at trim height.

We purchased four piano casters. These are three wheeled triangle units made of steel with a center detent. One goes under each outrigger. We crank the outriggers down until the fail safe lights go out. Works extremely well.

 

[Studio]

Make sure those casters are well attached, if one slips of then the whole lift falls.

 

[renegadeblack]

A stage I frequently work at has a Genie lift and we've come up with the perfect solution for rolling/moving the unit at trim height.

We purchased four piano casters. These are three wheeled triangle units made of steel with a center detent. One goes under each outrigger. We crank the outriggers down until the fail safe lights go out. Works extremely well.

That sounds like it's probably a good idea... but I'm not quite sure if it completely defeats the purpose of the outriggers...

 

[Charc]

That sounds like it's probably a good idea... but I'm not quite sure if it completely defeats the purpose of the outriggers...

The purpose of outriggers are to extend the base of the unit to prevent tipping. The base would still be larger, and I'd bet the risk of some wheel rolling in a tipping situation would be minimal.

I mean, I've only worked with a genie a couple of times, but in all of my experience, we never took the thing to ground height before repositioning, we just positioned with someone in the air. (And we had outriggers without a deployment sensor too.)

 

[calkew5]

Our resident non-profit theatre has two spaces. In both, the FOH positions are not catwalks or coves or what have you, but iron pipe mounted on the ceiling over the seats. You have to get to it with a ladder. Both spaces have a FOH ladder, the taller of which is an extension A-frame, and yes, they are placed on (obviously) non-OSHA approved wooden carts, one one each side, and the ladder straddles several rows of seats - allowing it to move horizontally.

Fortunately, I'm never in a position where I could be convinced to ride the extension, since working height is only a few feet above the joint of the ladder. The extension is really just a helpful handhold and body support.

I've never felt unsafe on these ladders, and I don't really know what the alternative would be, except to have a crew pick the ladder up every time we needed to move it. A scaffold wouldn't fit. A plain old extension ladder would be easier to move but not that safe to work from.

Which brings us to the reason that many theatre continue in unsafe practices like rolling ladders: they are chronically understaffed. Our entire lighting crew is two people, for instance.

I would never do something I didn't feel safe doing, but that's the problem: after a while, things stop bothering you like they should. In college, my TD said that they day you stop being scared of power tools is the day you cut your hand off.

 

[BillESC]

It does not defeat the purpose of the outriggers, they are in position and uncer load. The piano caster assemblies simply allow them to roll.

 

[FMEng]

The college I am at right now has 2 Aframes, and a genie which is never used because the battery is worn out and no one wants to buy a new one. Our current space has a trim of 16'. I have been up and pushed around in all of our devices, and i find it rather terrifying. Is the general consensus that this is illegal in the US? I feel like extension ladders are kind of our fate in our space, what with 3/4 of the lighting positions above seating, and I don't like that much either.

I have comfortably and safely climbed 400 foot radio towers for my employer. I am trained on and have operated 80 foot boom lifts, scissor lifts, and Genies. I obviously don't mind heights, but I do not like extension ladders at all. You won't get me on one!

If your Genie is a substitute for an extension ladder, I would forcefully raise the battery issue. If replacement is denied, then I would contact the school's safety officer or risk manager. College should be a safe place for students and employees, period. A few hundred dollars for batteries now, or a million dollar lawsuit for an injury later. Is that a tough choice? That this is even up for debate makes me mad.

Also, if you are uncomfortable doing something, listen to that little voice and don't do it. No show is worth risking someone's injury or death.