Riding an A-Frame Extension Ladder

[Charc]

So this is in my docket for today. I realized, some tips on the best way you have to straddle and sit on the extension portion of the ladder would be awesome. I don't plan on standing for a full call.

I just have to recall how to figure out all the pretzel legging. Once I get nice and comfy, then the fun starts.

 

[icewolf08]

The most importaint thing is good communication with the people pushing you. I should also really emphasize: PEOPLE. You should not be pushed by one person as it is not generally easy to keep those ladders moving in a straight line and avoid anything that may be on stage. Also, you should make sure that they always push you with the ladder moving the long way (ie. they should push from the rungs). Pushing from the side, you have more tip-over hazard as there is less ladder in that direction (if that makes sense, I didn't get that our very clearly).

 

[Dionysus]

Just a side note that this is 100% illegal in Canada.
A ministry of Labour inspector can dish out hefty fines for this action.

So if you do this in Canada, DON'T GET CAUGHT

 

[DaveySimps]

I am not sure that this is even legal in the states. Although very commonplace, I think it is a horrible and dangerous practice that has been tolerated for to long in our industry. I have seen to many people get hurt. It may cost more money and time, but there are many safer and more appropriate ways of focusing, in my opinion.

~Dave

 

[cprted]

Just a side note that this is 100% illegal in Canada.
A ministry of Labour inspector can dish out hefty fines for this action.

So if you do this in Canada, DON'T GET CAUGHT

Really? Do you have a link to relevant regs? Given that labour laws are Provincial matters, are you sure its not just an Ontario thing? We do this all the time in BC.

 

[Dionysus]

Really? Do you have a link to relevant regs? Given that labour laws are Provincial matters, are you sure its not just an Ontario thing? We do this all the time in BC.

Ontario very much so. I also know that it is illegal in some other provinces, not 100% for them all... I can't recall the regs 100% off hand, and I am not at home with all my documents.
I'll try to remember to look them up and post them....

I've heard of a few places in Ontario that had these types of ladders and had to get rid of them.

 

[cprted]

Ontario very much so. I also know that it is illegal in some other provinces, not 100% for them all... I can't recall the regs 100% off hand, and I am not at home with all my documents.
I'll try to remember to look them up and post them....

I've heard of a few places in Ontario that had these types of ladders and had to get rid of them.

This is all we get in BC regarding ladders:

13.4 Manufactured ladders

A manufactured portable ladder must be marked for the grade of material used to construct the ladder and the use for which the ladder is constructed.

[Enacted by B.C. Reg. 422/2004, effective January 1, 2005.]
13.5 Position and stability

A ladder must

(a) be placed on a firm and level base,

(b) be positioned so that the horizontal distance from the base to vertical plane of support is approximately ¼ of the ladder length,

(c) have sufficient length to project approximately 1 m (3 ft) above the upper landing to which it provides access, and

(d) if necessary, be secured to ensure stability during use.

[Enacted by B.C. Reg. 422/2004, effective January 1, 2005.]
13.6 Use restrictions

(1) If work cannot be done from a ladder without hazard to a worker, a work platform must be provided.

(2) A worker must not carry up or down a ladder, heavy or bulky objects or any other objects which may make ascent or descent unsafe.

[Enacted by B.C. Reg. 422/2004, effective January 1, 2005.]

I would definitely be interested in seeing what you guys have in term of regs.

 

[gafftaper]

Boy this thread makes me nervous. I'm not sure if it should be allowed to continue. I believe these ladders are illegal in the U.S. (I'm pretty sure you haven't been able to buy one in a long time). Having one on wheels is definitely illegal but that didn't stop a lot of old school TD's from building their own rolling platform and strapping on the ladder. However unlike Canada, enforcement of any OSHA rules are usually only enforced AFTER someone get's killed. So when you fall and die, someone from OSHA will come buy, fine the theater and take away the ladder.

There is NO way I would go up one of those ladders. If I walked into a call and they asked me to go up one I would walk right back out. I don't need your money that bad... I want to go home and see my kids at night. You should NEVER work alone at height. What happens if the ladder falls? How long can you hang up there without help? If you fall to the ground, getting you to the hospital quickly could easily be the difference between life and death. The majority of falls from above 6' are fatal. Did everyone get that? The MAJORITY of falls from above 6' are FATAL! Then there's another 20% or so of the falls above 6' that only paralyze you. It's only about 5% of falls above 6' that you can walk away from unharmed. Think about that.

How much is your life worth? Is it worth $600? Eleven foot high rolling scaffold for $569 including free shipping.

EDIT: I'll leave this thread open as I believe there is a good safety discussion here. But if the discussion shifts toward any sort of talk that glorifies how fun it is to be dangrous on a rolling A-frame it's coming down.

 

[Lotos]

This is all we get in BC regarding ladders:

This is possibly one of those situations where they'll hit you based on what is not written, rather than what is...

13.4 Manufactured ladders

A manufactured portable ladder must be marked for the grade of material used to construct the ladder and the use for which the ladder is constructed.

Since I've not seen one of these ladders for sale in a donkeys age... I must ask, does each ladder you use for this carry these markings?

13.5 Position and stability

A ladder must

(a) be placed on a firm and level base,

(b) be positioned so that the horizontal distance from the base to vertical plane of support is approximately ¼ of the ladder length,

(c) have sufficient length to project approximately 1 m (3 ft) above the upper landing to which it provides access, and

(d) if necessary, be secured to ensure stability during use.

(a) and (d) could be called into serious question by a ladder placed on a rolling base. At the discretion of the inspector.

13.6 Use restrictions

(1) If work cannot be done from a ladder without hazard to a worker, a work platform must be provided.

(2) A worker must not carry up or down a ladder, heavy or bulky objects or any other objects which may make ascent or descent unsafe.

Again, an inspector could likely hit you for section (1) due to the definate and real hazards present to the worker at the top of said ladder.


Just a reminder folks, just because the law doesn't say 'Practice X is not to be used' doesn't mean that it's A-ok... Just that nobody's been nailed with a fine for it... Yet.

 

[fredthe]

I believe these ladders are illegal in the U.S. (I'm pretty sure you haven't been able to buy one in a long time).

These ladders are still made (in the US,) but now they are referred to as Trestle Ladders. They are designed to be used in pairs, with planking between the upright sections. We actually asked one manufacturer (Werner) about their use in the old-fashioned theater sense (without wheels) and were told they were not designed for a person to work from the upright section. Any use for other than their designed purpose would certainly run you afoul of OSHA.

While some may argue whether OSHA applies to them, see Gaff's statement above. If it's not safe, DON'T DO IT!

-Fred

 

[fastfreddy]

Im gonna have to agree with Gafftapper, in our industry we have been doing silly unsafe and needless things for to long, it is up to us to put a stop to these practices. If you dont have the time to get off a ladder, move it, then resume work in the new location, perhaps you could look at restructuring your work day. I havent had to use my right to refuse work in a long time, and I am glad for that, but I am sure I have been lucky in that regards. Maby you could look up your local laws regarding safety in the theater, and remember, "we've been doing it this way forever" dose'nt mean its right.

 

[icewolf08]

I am just curious, of all the people who won't roll around on ladders, how many roll around in lifts (ie. Genie AWP/IWP style)? Be honest if you answer.

 

[LightingPenguin]

I am just curious, of all the people who won't roll around on ladders, how many roll around in lifts (ie. Genie AWP/IWP style)? Be honest if you answer.

I come down to about 2 or 3' off the ground and then get someone to push me, then go back up.

 

[Les]

You may also see A-frame ladders regarded to as "sprinkler ladders" or something to that effect, as they are (or were) commonly used by technicians installing and servicing fire sprinklers.

Re: Rolling Base. Several years ago and in my high school days, we received an auditorium renovation and equipment package upgrade. Texas Scenic contracted the job and provided us with a wooden A-Frame ladder. It was used very rarely, usually only during fine focus sessions in adding or fine-tuning gobos which couldn't be done with the electrics flown in. I hated this ladder, not for it's lack of 'idiot proofness' but because it was a PITA to set up and take down. Texas Scenic provided us with a rolling metal base which appeared to be specifically designed for this ladder. The base had a pocket in each corner for the feet to fit into and while it was a pain to get it set up this way (took 2-4 people), it was MUCH more stable on the base. Without the base the ladder would wobble, but with the feet firmly in the pockets it was pretty darn stable. The wheels were locking casters, and it really wasn't that hard just to get off the ladder and move it when you were ready. Especially since we usually didn't have to deal with every single instrument that was hung. IF we rolled it with a person, we would have them climb down to about 4', lower the mast a few feet, roll, lock and repeat. Rolling with someone on the vertical mast is extremely dangerous, especially when factoring in the horizontal forces now acting on the already unstable nature of the mast. Lowering the mast a few feet would also reduce the chances of striking an instrument or other piece of rigging since we would usually raise it a little above the teaser line as to avoid having to over-reach. Carrying instruments up and down this ladder would be a no-no. We lowered the electrics for all that.

 

[gafftaper]

Alex makes a great point. I admit I used to roll around in a genie when I was young, dumb and we had an ancient genie without interlocks. I also used the scary A frame in college. However I would never do either today. I've been educated and it's not worth it.

Again get a rolling scaffold. Depending on the height you don't need outriggers. Depending on the size two people can work up there. I got a big 5x8 deck. It's really stable and we could have three people working on top if we needed too. It disassembles quite small and stores in my plywood rack in the shop. My deluxe one with a trap door in the top deck so you can safely climb the inside and stand on two landings on the way up cost about $1200.

My use of statistics above have been questioned via PM:

I was taught in a rigging class about a year ago. In falls above 6': Less than 10% walk away, a little over 50% die, and about 20% are paralyzed. Leaving around 20% with a serious but not life altering injury. I have no idea where that data comes from.

In another thread, Whatrigger? says that 80% of all falls REPORTED to OSHA from above 6' are fatal.

Clearly 6' is the magic height and a lot of people are going to die. But the exact number is a little unclear. If anyone has some free time it would be interesting to try to track down the actual statistics.

 

[fredthe]

In another thread, Whatrigger? says that 80% of all falls REPORTED to OSHA from above 6' are fatal.

Clearly 6' is the magic height and a lot of people are going to die. But the exact number is a little unclear. If anyone has some free time it would be interesting to try to track down the actual statistics.

I found this here:http://www.anapolschwartz.com/docs/lewinterNJLJ.pdf

The National Safety Council accident
statistics establish that falling
from a height of 11 feet creates a
50/50 likelihood of being killed.

However, I haven't been able to find the reference on the National Safety Council website.

I imagine the 80% figure is inflated by people not reporting falls unless they absolutely have to. But, just because you won't die, isn't a reason to do something dangerous.

-Fred

 

[cdub260]

I was taught in a rigging class about a year ago. In falls above 6': Less than 10% walk away, a little over 50% die, and about 20% are paralyzed. Leaving around 20% with a serious but not life altering injury. I have no idea where that data comes from.

I'm one of the 10% of people who've walked away from a fall over 6 ft. Granted, I fell off a truss, not a ladder but I fell because I was not following proper safety procedures. Nine years later I'm left with pain issues from a permanent injury to both of my knees and a pinched nerve in my back. And I was lucky. I should have died in that fall. There's also still a chance that down the road a ways, my injuries from that fall could end my career.

The full story is posted here:

http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/stage-management/15443-safety-rules.html

If something seems unsafe, it probably is. No job is worth your life or your health.

 

[NickJones]

I have rolled around in a Genie. Our new one is motorised.
Our A-Frame has wheels, but as soon as the weight is applied to them the wheels retract and so you still have to get off to move it, but you can move it with one person.
Nick

 

[coolbeam]

...I just have to recall how to figure out all the pretzel legging. ...

Some foam or even carpet scraps taped around the top rung helps comfort immensely. Use a fireman's leg lock, but be aware this violates OSHA's "three points of contact" rule. I wouldn't go up unless I knew and trusted the two (at least) ground ladder crew.

Werner-Ladders.com - 16’ FIBERGLASS EXTENSION TRESTLE-28’ by Werner Ladders

 

[fredthe]

Coolbeam,
The ladder you posted the photo of is the one I was told by the manufacturer is NOT rated for working from the center extension section.
While foam or carpet might make it more comfortable, it would make it even less safe than it already is, as it would be modifying the ladder, which is strictly forbidden. It would also make it difficult to securely grab the top rung should you need to. In short, the key is safety, not comfort.
It's far more comfortable to stand on a scaffold, anyway.
-Fred