Riding an A-Frame Extension Ladder

[jwl868]

To me, this seems perfectly consistent. A ladder can have wheels. If it does, they must be locking. You can't use them when the ladder is occupied. You can only use them to position the ladder when unoccupied.

-Fred

I wasn't very clear with my comment: 29 CFR 1910.25 Portable wood ladders and 1910.26 Portable metal ladders deal with portable ladders, like step ladders and extension ladders. But the regs are silent about movement while occupied. 29 CFR 1926.1053 Ladders deals with many of the same topics, including step ladders and extension ladders, but is explicit that they are not to be moved while occupied.


Joe

 

[Footer]

OSHA has been brought up many times in this thread. While I am at a community theatre, I am the only paid employee that works onstage.

Question to the community.... what laws prevent my volunteers from using the ladder in New York State?

 

[gafftaper]

Sadly, OSHA law only applies to employees and as far as I know most state law is the same. You can send 12 year old students and 60 year old volunteers into any dangerous situation you want without violating OSHA law. However most people don't know that. Tell your supervisor that OSHA says it's illegal to continue using the ladder in this way. They won't think to ask, "Yes but is it illegal for the students to use it?" If they do you really don't want to work there.

Fortunately, the multi-million dollar lawsuit won't care if OSHA covered them or not.

 

[shiben]

Well hold on. I think the lawsuit wont, but the judge will. If your doing something that is proper under OSHA, then I doubt that the judge is going to find against the employer. And if your a student, following OSHA guidelines, its gonna be hard for someone to say they could have kept you safer other than having someone else do it.

 

[fredthe]

Well hold on. I think the lawsuit wont, but the judge will. If your doing something that is proper under OSHA, then I doubt that the judge is going to find against the employer. And if your a student, following OSHA guidelines, its gonna be hard for someone to say they could have kept you safer other than having someone else do it.

Actually, if you look at the link I posted earlier, just following OSHA isn't necessarily a defense. If they have any inkling that it's unsafe, they can be held liable.

-Fred

 

[cprted]

You may not run afoul of OHS regs, but you can bet your boots you would be found civilly liable if something were to happen to a volunteer carrying out activities deemed unsafe by Worker's Comp.

 

[fastfreddy]

I also work in a theater that has volunteers, but they all have to go through training before volunteering, and they also sign a form saying they will follow all the laws and acts like they were employees. Pretty much anyone who does not go through our training does not do anything in the air. We do have certain theatre groups who have been using the theatre for 20 years, but they take safety as seriously as we do. I do feel comfortable sending our volunteers anywhere I would send our paid staff.

 

[church]

The Green Book in Ontario also has a clause that erquires the employer to take all reasonable precautions to ensure the safety of the employee. So just because you think you followed the letter of a reg does not mean that you are in the clear. Also Canada has Bill C45 in place which allows for a supervisor or manager to be charged under the criminal code up to and including manslaughter or second degree murder if they tell workers to do something unsafe or not to use the ppe etc. Obviously criminal code requires much higher standard of evidence than civil code but I do not imigane anyone wants to find out the hard way.

 

[jwl868]

OSHA has been brought up many times in this thread. While I am at a community theatre, I am the only paid employee that works onstage.

Question to the community.... what laws prevent my volunteers from using the ladder in New York State?

Just as a followup to gafftaper's response, US OSHA applies to private employers and employees. Each US agency may have their own occupational health and safety rules, but most use OSHA. Public employees are not covered under US OSHA, homever, many states bring public employees into the program through state OSHA regulations.

In any case, a volunteer or a student is not protected by OSHA. (Though for students, I would think that there is a basic school administration policy for the health and safety of students. For example, I would hope that the wood shop has safety procedures.)

Joe

 

[JChenault]

Sadly, OSHA law only applies to employees and as far as I know most state law is the same. You can send 12 year old students and 60 year old volunteers into any dangerous situation you want without violating OSHA law. However most people don't know that. Tell your supervisor that OSHA says it's illegal to continue using the ladder in this way. They won't think to ask, "Yes but is it illegal for the students to use it?" If they do you really don't want to work there.

Fortunately, the multi-million dollar lawsuit won't care if OSHA covered them or not.

My understanding is that washington state law has regulations about minors on ladders. If that is correct you can't send your 12 year student up a ladder - That 60 year old volunteer must be assumed to be able to look out for himself.

 

[SteveB]

It does not defeat the purpose of the outriggers, they are in position and uncer load. The piano caster assemblies simply allow them to roll.

Bill

I have to say that I'm surprised you would recommend this idea, especially here on a forum populated with a lot of high school and college students that rely on the advise of professionals. It certainly circumvents the use that Genie considers a safe practice and is not something I would even suggest to a fellow professional.

One of the issues I have concerns the operating system of a standard Genie with interlocks for the outriggers. Having owned one and used it for years, when you crank the outriggers to get a green light, most of the system weight is still on the basic wheels, not the outriggers. This is obvious in the fact that unlike the older Genies, the top of the outrigger where it is inserted into the slot, is not required to make actual contact with the inside of the top of the slot in order for the light to activate thus, in my experience, much of the system weight is NOT on the actual outriggers. The situation you describe seemingly would allow the outriggers to not have a firm base (having been placed on casters) in the event that the Genie starts to topple. I have SEEN this occur when the Genie "rocks" from the load shifting, the outriggers often then become supporting structures as they do (finally) make contact with the outrigger slot.

This is actually one of the reasons I dislike the current crop of Genies (as compared to the original versions without interlocks), beside the fact that they are lighter with more play in the mast, the outriggers do not support as well. Given the fact that the new versions have outriggers that are shorter, it seems that Genies has cut the safety margins to a slim level in order to make the device useful with shorter outriggers. I would be even less likely to want to use a caster set under the supports as a result.

I know for a fact that IATSE (at least Local One) is very proactive to get the practice stopped of moving technicians around in a personal lift and/or ladder that is not designed to be moved while extended. There are plenty of devices designed for such purposes and it is a safe operating practice we all need to follow.

Steve Bailey
Brooklyn College

 

[gafftaper]

Well hold on. I think the lawsuit wont, but the judge will. If your doing something that is proper under OSHA, then I doubt that the judge is going to find against the employer. And if your a student, following OSHA guidelines, its gonna be hard for someone to say they could have kept you safer other than having someone else do it.

OSHA simply doesn't cover non-employees. That's a lot different than saying it's okay for a student to do things OSHA bans. It's sort of assumed you won't use students and volunteers for things that an employee is not allowed to do. A law suit is going to point to the OSHA regs and say, "This is too dangerous for employees so you have students do it?" You may end up paying double!

Also want to clarify. That there are about 20 states that have their own occupational safety laws. OSHA is a minimum but you are allowed to add to them and make the stricter. Also Idaho is the only state to have occupational safety laws that apply directly to rigging.

 

[Footer]

and say, "This is too dangerous for employees so you have students do it?" You may end up paying double!

Playing devils advocate....

What if that student is replaced by a volunteer who is a 45 year old man and has a PhD in nuclear engineering? Can we not assume he knew the risks before he took on whatever task was put infront of him?

 

[gafftaper]

What Footer you want to be an attorney now?

The point I was trying to make... although I admit poorly... is that if a student or volunteer falls to their death you are not going to be protected from lawsuits because they weren't covered by OSHA. On the contrary, the lawsuit may actually be worse because it could be implied that you were deliberately dodging the law by having people who aren't covered by OSHA do the work.

 

[FMEng]

While OSHA laws don't cover students, an educational institution should use those regulations as MINIMUM standards for work safety. Of course, that's just my opinion.

Many states have work place safety laws that far exceed OSHA regs, and they could apply to non-employees. Washington State's fall protection laws are much more restrictive than the federal laws.

 

[jonliles]

Playing devils advocate....

What if that student is replaced by a volunteer who is a 45 year old man and has a PhD in nuclear engineering? Can we not assume he knew the risks before he took on whatever task was put infront of him?

Hey Footer-
I don't have my PhD (though it is a degree in Nuclear Engineering, and I a still have a few years to go until I am 45.

My use of statistics above have been questioned via PM:

I was taught in a rigging class about a year ago. In falls above 6': Less than 10% walk away, a little over 50% die, and about 20% are paralyzed. Leaving around 20% with a serious but not life altering injury. I have no idea where that data comes from.

In another thread, Whatrigger? says that 80% of all falls REPORTED to OSHA from above 6' are fatal...

All of these statistics can be found on the Bureau of Labor Stats (assuming you are in the US) at U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics . It does take a bit of research, but it is there.

I repair Gas Turbine power plants around the world. In the Energy sector we are required to do at-a-minimum annual training on Fall Prevention, and more often than not, refresher training each time we go to a power plant or on to a new project. Riding on anything at height is grounds for IMMEDIATE DISMASSAL. I carry that same philosphy to the 501(c)(3) Theatre and at the High School I volunteer at.

Here is more information from OSHA: Safety and Health Topics: Fall Protectionhttp://www.osha.gov/SLTC/fallprotection/index.html

And a website from the UK:
Falls from height: Statistics Falls from height: Statistics

That being said, being at height is DANGEROUS, riding around at height is EXPONETIALLY MORE DANGEROUS. I’ve witness too many near misses to ever consider this.

I have seen what a 45 foot fall does to a body. We had to recover a young sailor once. He fell 4 decks down a ventilation shaft. It was not pretty.

 

[LightStud]

I know for a fact that IATSE (at least Local One) is very proactive to get the practice stopped of moving technicians around in a personal lift and/or ladder that is not designed to be moved while extended.

Regardless of the safety issues, one might suggest that those making $30+ per hour have a financial interest in prolonging the duration of their calls, and thus are willing to go up and down 15+ times when focusing an electric of 30 fixtures. One could argue that the fatigue and monotony involved makes going up and down less safe than rolling at height.

There are plenty of devices designed for such purposes and it is a safe operating practice we all need to follow.

Please cite some examples, as the only ones I'm aware of are the heavy and expensive self-propelled AWP models unavailable to small theatre companies.

 

[cprted]

Regardless of the safety issues, one might suggest that those making $30+ per hour have a financial interest in prolonging the duration of their calls, and thus are willing to go up and down 15+ times when focusing an electric of 30 fixtures.

Whether I'm getting paid $11/hr or $40/hr, safety come first. Period.

One could argue that the fatigue and monotony involved makes going up and down less safe than rolling at height.

If the device isn't designed to have someone rolled at height and thus has an unacceptable tipping potential, it isn't safe no matter how fatigued you may or may not be.

Please cite some examples, as the only ones I'm aware of are the heavy and expensive self-propelled AWP models unavailable to small theatre companies.

Don't put a price tag on your safety. The number one rule should always be to go home in one piece. No show is worth getting hurt for.

 

[shiben]

Of course not. But the point remains that a small community theater, or a small college theater program like mine can barely afford to get a few new instruments each year, much less a big, expensive lift. Its just not fiscally possible. What are good solutions for this type of situation? We have a scaffolding, but its not usable in our black box right now because of how seating is arranged. That said, neither are our AFrames. Actually, what is a good option for this type of situation? Extension ladders have been the traditional means, but I have heard bad things about them and working with lights on them.

 

[SteveB]

"Regardless of the safety issues, one might suggest that those making $30+ per hour have a financial interest in prolonging the duration of their calls, and thus are willing to go up and down 15+ times when focusing an electric of 30 fixtures. One could argue that the fatigue and monotony involved makes going up and down less safe than rolling at height."

I take exception to this statement. I understand the economics of the small theater company, having started my career in such venues, but cannot fathom an attitude that assumes that because it takes longer to be constantly going up and down, having to un-load the Genie outriggers to move, then re-set them, that the crew is going to be suffering from "fatigue and monotony" and are going to more prone to getting hurt then if they roll around, ignoring all safety concerns, simply to get the call over with faster ?.

If you believe that, then I would suggest perhaps that you find a different career and as jonlilies stated, you will shortly find that most other industries that use similar equipment, are generally much more safety oriented (not that everyone follows the safety guidelines) and it will be an education to you. Just because we work in theater, with it's often times lack of funding, CANNOT continue to be an excuse to ignore safe use of equipment

"Please cite some examples, as the only ones I'm aware of are the heavy and expensive self-propelled AWP models unavailable to small theater companies".

We had our stage deck replaced and had a huge fight with the architect involved to get the floor designed to be strong enough to allow use of our JLG powered lift. His suggestion was that we stop using the JLG and we essentially told him to stuff it. The floor got it's extra layer of 3/4" plywood. We purchased this lift as we had general manager that understood that safety is not something you practice when funding allows. If you cannot afford a lift that allows a person to roll while extended, or have circumstances that make such a device impractical, then get used to the idea of using the correct and safe equipment for the job. Any other reasons for not following safe and proper use of ladders and man-lifts are simply excuses that might someday get someone killed.

SB