Robe Intelligent Lighting

[maninashed]

Hi folks, just wondering if anyone has any advice on Robe Moving Heads. The college I work for is getting a new theatre next May (black box, 240 capacity) and we have been told we are getting 4 Robe Clubspot 250 CTs and 6 Robe Clubwash 250CTs, in addition to various Profiles, Fresnels and Parcans.

My only worry is that the CTs look to be at the cheaper end of the Robe range, and some websites selling them seem to imply that they are more suited for clubs and TV studios, rather than theatre. Our new space will be used for a couple of musicals each year, as well as BTEC acting performances (contemporary rather than classic theatre acting) and occasional band nights - so it's a mixed bag of applications really. The college does not have the funding to get anything more expensive, but I was wondering if the 'less is more' theory applies to intelligent lighting - as in, would it be better to get say, 4-6 better moving heads (Macs or better Robes) or stick with the 10 cheaper end CT range we have pencilled in to be bought for next May?

I suppose the other issue is that some students will probably get involved with using the lights, so we don't want them to be too valuable just in case some muppet gets a bit heavy handed with one of them, but at the same time I don't want to be designing lighting sequences whilst spending the whole time regretting that we got the wrong lights...

Any advice would be most appreciated.

 

[derekleffew]

Firstly, there ain't no such thing as an intelligent light, moving, LED, or otherwise. While I have never worked with those particular Robe models, nor programmed any for that matter, I have hung quite few, including a whole boatload on The Police's last tour. Reports from the touring Crew Chief were very favorable concerning reliability and maintenance.

I also suggest reading this Collaborative Article: Gafftaper Method, if you have any influence over purchasing.

 

[maninashed]

Thanks for the info derekleffew.

Glad to hear the Robe lights you mentioned got good reviews - at the very least it implies that other models may be of a similar build quality/reliability. With regards to 'intelligent lighting', I am fully aware that no lights have actual intelligence...if that was the case we would get them to design and operate a show for us. But moving heads are sometimes referred to as 'intelligent lighting', as I am sure you are aware.

Thanks for the heads up on the Gafftaper Method. It is indeed a really useful article and I will definitely consider the questions raised before the college makes any decisions on the moving heads.

 

[derekleffew]

...But moving heads are sometimes referred to as 'intelligent lighting', as I am sure you are aware. ...

It is my life-long goal to obliterate this abhorrent practice.

I don't want intelligent lights; I want obedient lights!
-- Benny Kirkham, Lighting Designer/Programmer



(Moving this thread to the Lighting Forum, where hopefully it will get more exposure.)

 

[icewolf08]

Robe has a good line up of fixtures, from the low end to the high end. The real question you have to ask is what you plan to use your MLs for. If you need fixtures to produce special effects and be able to cut through a conventional stage wash then you will need brighter fixtures. You need to step up to at least the 575W range of fixtures. (though you may be able to get away with some of the 300W as they are newer and should be more efficient)

The other thing, is that for theatre you will really want fixtures with CMY color mixing. Being locked into fixed colors on a wheel can be very limiting after a while. I don't know off hand which Robe products have CMY, but they do make them. I am pretty sure that the ROBIN line all have CMY.

So, if you can still influence what is being purchased, or what the bid specifications are, I would push for a CMY fixture with a little more power. It will cost more, and you may not be able to get the same number of fixtures, but you will probably be happier in the end.

 

[kadams17]

I've used Robe 575E AT moving head lights and they were quite nice, as I have worked with a few other moving instruments.

In my opinion the Robe series is more apt for a rock concert tour, they still function well in a theater, they aren't too loud and they do have many good options. I still prefer Source Four Revs for theatrical intelligent lighting, just because the lamp washes well with other ETC instruments.

But the Robes should suit you well, they ARE made in an old tank factory in the Czech Republic, after all.

 

[maninashed]

Thanks for all the info guys. It is all really useful stuff.

I thought it might help to list all the fixtures that we are supposed to be getting:


Moving lights

4 x Robe Clubspot 250 CT
6 x Robe Clubwash 250CT

Conventional

18 x Source 4 Jnr profiles 25 – 50
12 x 1.2 Kw Selecon Fresnels – no Barndoors
12 x 650w Selecon Fresnels – no Barndoors
8 x 800w Selecon Hui Cyc Floods
8 x Par 64 Parcans

Control

Strand Palette VL16/500 control console


The performance area is roughly 11 metres by 9 metres. There are three bars above the performance area and 1 FOH bar.

My first thought is that with the Fresnels spanning from 650w and 1.2kw in power capability, surely the moving heads listed are not going to be able to cut through the general stage wash (as suggested by icewolf08), should I want to use any special effect, rotating gobos etc. Not that I will constantly be running the fresnels on full whack, but even so, will the Robe 250s have any significant effect in this setup?

I am also going to try and steer more towards ETC for the control as I heard strand tend to focus more on the theatrical side of things rather than multi-purpose.

I apologise if it seems like I am trying to get free installation advice here. We have a company that has been hired by the college to spec-out and install everything...I just want to get other peoples opinions on whether or not this setup sounds like it will work effectively for our needs (2 musicals a year, small theatrical performances and occassional band nights).

Thanks again for the advice guys.

 

[icewolf08]

Over all, the package is pretty good. If you want to change the control, that is fine, but the new strand Palette line seems to handle MLs just fine. As for which is geared more towards theatre use, it is pretty much a dead heat. Odds are you won't hear about big concerts going out with Palettes or Eos (they tend to like Hogs and MAs and such).

The only other thing that I would change, is getting full size source fours over the juniors. If you can afford the same number of instruments, you will be much happier with the flexibility you get from a full size source four. Hey, if you really have they money, you might even consider actually getting Selecon Pacifics.

By the way, we are happy to provide advice, it is what we are here for, but if you enjoy our advice and plan to keep coming back, you can become a premium member and help ensure that we are still here the next time you need us. /shameless plug

 

[kadams17]

I agree with the thought on getting full sized source fours.

In our theatre dept. we use both, but we mostly use the jr.s in our blackbox theatre, with a few 50degree instruments in there to help out. You're going to get way more flex out of a full size, at the sacrifice of your money.

 

[gafftaper]

First off the Palette VL is a great console. ETC makes great gear. Neither is really what you want to do a full moving light show... but both have nice on board effects generators making it much easier to program moving lights.

Having recently equipped a new black box theater... your conventional lighting inventory sounds rather small to me. Have you tried drawing out a light plot for a show in the space to figure out how many instruments you need? Will you have reconfigurable seats and be switching around from Proscenium Style to Thrust or Arena seating? If yes you need to do light plots for all those. Don't forget to consider the need for specials. My black box varies from about 23'x23' for arena to 50'x25' for proscenium seating. I have 48 Standard Source fours, 12 zooms, 8 selecon zooms (wish I had more), 48 Fresnels, and about 20 L&E BroadCyc's. I often run out of Source Fours and have to use zooms to finish the plot.

Is the lighting equipment part of the base building bid package to the contractor? If it is, is there any way you can get that money backed out of the package and just get the cash for your department to spend yourself. You will pay 2-3 times the actual price of all your lighting fixtures by purchasing them through the building contractor. When we were buying our package two years ago I was told the contractor's price on a full size Source Four was about $750. I eventually paid about $280 for mine. Do, get your dimmers and all the installed gear through the contractor. But don't buy anything portable from them (lights, cable, microphones, shop gear, etc.). Do it yourself through a bid process with a dealer and you'll get 2 or 3 times more gear for the same amount of money.

As the originator of what became known around here as the Gafftaper Method. I would encourage you to seriously consider dropping the Robe fixtures for more conventional fixtures and a few toys like some Seachangers, gobo rotators, and other "components"... you've read the article.

I have 12 Seachanger wash units I use for down light combined with 8 seachanger profile units I have set up in a gobo texture wash. The 20 lights together are PERFECT for jazz night and dance groups. I program one set of subs for the wash units in a variety of colors. Another set of subs are my texture units in a variety of colors. Then I get a list of moods for each song and mix color combinations as we go. Quickly busking a show that looks pretty good without spending hours programming (or expensive maintenance). If you own the moving lights EVERYONE who uses the space will expect you to use them. Do you have someone on staff with the time to do all the programming? Do you have the upkeep budget to pay for the lamps and mechanical maintenance?

 

[Lotos]

Here at Stage West we have a boatload of older Robe/Microh gear (The lights are identical, both functionally and internally...) being pushed by a Strand Light Palette VL.

They're also near indestructable...
I've had them go through fan failures that went unnoticed, "cast iron payphone meets moving light", and MDG Haze Fluid buildup that crippled a pair of Elations right beside the Robe fixture.

I've also had downs with them... For starters, the particular model I have (as I stated, older lights... Robe Spot 575 XT, Robe Wash 575 XT and their Microh counterparts Arena Ultra Spot, and Arena Ultra Wash) are heavy as all get out...

I've honestly had very little issue with using 'club' variety lights in a theatre setting... Other than needing a little bit more regular maintenance, and beaing clearly made of cheaper parts than the Robe/Microh gear... Our Elations are going strong. Design Spot 250 and Vision Scan 250... And their totally aimed at the club market.
If you're getting 250's instead of 575w fixtures... Bear in mind that they don't have the 'punch' nessecary to make it through a stage wash... They work best on a dimly lit and/or isolated stage.
In ideal conditions, 250's can look DEAD sexy, don't get me wrong... I'll see if I can dig up some photos.


As for the Light Palette/Palette series... I love them... The guys at Strand & Horizon Controls have been there for us every step of the way from the initial Marqee ILC purchase, through to our 'upgrade' to the Strand, and even though being part of the Beta group has resulted in the occasional 'bad' software build... The public releases have been rock solid.

The console is a perfect blend of conventional control with moving light functionality designed in, rather than 'tacked on' as it feels with so many other consoles.

 

[shiben]

I have to say, I happen to agree with gafftaper here. Our black box shares and inventory with our Open Vista space (only one show is ever hung at the same time), and we have nearly 100 Source 4s, 20 odd cycs, 9 ministrips, and 40 fresnels (brand new Selecon cyc units, cant remember what type. Order is arriving some time in the next 2 weeks). Perhaps this is just me, but although I would love moving lights(I have dreams of owning several MAC2ks), I have discovered that you can actually make a pretty decent looking rock show (or dance show, or jazz night, etc) with conventional units. However, for that you need more of them. And with the price of one ML getting you several source 4s, or a couple of seachangers/gobo rotators/ICues/Right Arms etc, I feel that on a limited budget you get more bang for the buck. With a quick calculation based on google searches, youll get a Robe Clubwash 250CT for 2500 or so, so you can get 10 source 4s for that. Or 25+ PAR cans. Quite frankly, for a color wash, 25 PAR cans can give you a 5 color wash that you probably could get with 6 moving wash fixtures. Now multiply times 6. Its totally up to you, but I would feel a bit light handed with that conventional inventory, and I doubt the MLs could make up. But really, its up to you and the bean counters, in the end.

 

[maninashed]

Hi Guys

Thank you all for your various input. It is all very useful and has definitely made me take a serious look at the list of equipment we have set to be installed.

For those who asked, the seating in the theatre will be fixed (retractable seating) so the audience will always be in the same place - facing directly towards the performance space. It is probably worth mentioning that although I have worked as a technician at the college for nearly 5 years, I don't have a massive amount of experience with lighting design as my job covers a million other roles (composer, sound technician, media technician etc.) so plotting shows is not something I am particularly au fait with...although this is something that I will involve myself with a lot more once we are moved in to a decent theatre space.

I think I might reconsider the number of moving lights we have - perhaps getting 4 or 6 with a higher output to cut through general stage washes etc. I do like the gafftaper way of thinking though, and I will definitely look into things like gobo rotators and just generally making sure we have enough conventional fixtures to cover a show in the first place. I would drop the idea of moving lights altogether but because we are going to let some of the students use the lighting and sound equipment themselves as part of the BTEC course, I think it would be very useful to have a few in place, if only as an educational function to introduce them to the technology. Plus, I have never had the opportunity to use MLs myself, so getting at least a few would be very beneficial for my own experience too.

I guess I have quite a lot to think about (and no doubt discuss/argue with the contractors), so I will do my best to give you an update once things start moving forward. Oh, and to answer gafftapers question, we are not getting everything through the building contractor of the whole college, instead we have sub contracted another firm that installs theatre setups like this and they are the ones that have provided us with the spec. Even so, I am sure we could probably get more for our money by buying all the fixtures directly ourselves, but we need the help with installing it all, so it just makes things a lot easier to buy the lights through them.

Thanks again folks