Totally need help, small live band setup!

J

Joebar

Member
Hi there!
First i want to appologize i´m totally new to this so please bare with my lack of knowledge..

heres the deal:

i´m in the run for a major installation at a big sportsbar ,the install sound i got confidence in but now the problems
theres a live band stage with 150 seats in about 150 m2 and the plan is to have smaller bands and stand-up acts performing there ,so i have to offer the complete kit there too to get the deal and that´s were my headake starts ,have no idea about live gigging.

The speakers and Amps is not a concern ,but the mixer ,effects ,monitors ,microphones are..

Since the room is basically a restaurant there is no space for mixers and such so my plan was to use a digital mixer sollution thru wifi for easy setup and flexibility ,been looking at Behringer X AIR X18 wich seems to incorporate a lot of good stuff and controlled thru a I-pad makes it easy to fit a soundguy in the room...

Monitors:
How many monitors do i need ,the stage is 6x3m ,would 3 be enough? bass ,guitarr and vocals? is it better and easier to run active ones , looked at Behringers Eurolive F1320D wich also incorporated some sort of feedback filter
how do i route the monitors to be able to controll the output in them seperatly from the pa ,since the same mixer should be used for them as well!?

Microphones:
How many ? brand ,wired or beltpack ? drum mics?

Feedback:This is probably my biggest fear ,don´t want a feedback issue ,the main pa is in front of the stage so i´m more concerned with the monitors ,if i need a feedback-destroyer what and were in the line should it be

The main pa is a Audac kit with FX 3.15 Top-ends and FX 1.18 SUBS and 2pcs AUDAC SMQ 500 Amp for the top-end and one SMQ 750 for the subs

Thanks for all input

Cheers /J
 
Go with something simple, sturdy, and adaptable. For monitors go powered and small, maybe the EV ZLX-12Ps? Mics are simple, I would use SM58s (or Beta 58s, budget permitting) for vocals, although I also really like the Audix OM line. If you need instrument mics then a SM57 is always a solid choice, and for drums try the DMK57-52 kit. Don't get an iPad or tablet based solution, nothing's worse then not being able to connect when you most need to, Instead look around at dedicated digital mixers, ideally with digital snakes unless you are mixing right off stage. The X-32 compact and the QU-16 both have digital snake options and mix well live. Most digital mixers have decent effects built in, so I don't think that is much of a concern.
A few side notes: if this is a performance space, there should be space set aside for lighting control, so audio can go there. I almost always avoid behringer, with the only exception being the X-32, so much of their stuff is still poorly made. I would budget about $3000 for mixing, but if that's too much the Presonus studiolive 16.0.2 is an amazing board, just less feature rich.

Best of luck, and hope this helps!
 
AsherSB said:
Go with something simple, sturdy, and adaptable. For monitors go powered and small, maybe the EV ZLX-12Ps? Mics are simple, I would use SM58s (or Beta 58s, budget permitting) for vocals, although I also really like the Audix OM line. If you need instrument mics then a SM57 is always a solid choice, and for drums try the DMK57-52 kit. Don't get an iPad or tablet based solution, nothing's worse then not being able to connect when you most need to, Instead look around at dedicated digital mixers, ideally with digital snakes unless you are mixing right off stage. The X-32 compact and the QU-16 both have digital snake options and mix well live. Most digital mixers have decent effects built in, so I don't think that is much of a concern.
A few side notes: if this is a performance space, there should be space set aside for lighting control, so audio can go there. I almost always avoid behringer, with the only exception being the X-32, so much of their stuff is still poorly made. I would budget about $3000 for mixing, but if that's too much the Presonus studiolive 16.0.2 is an amazing board, just less feature rich.

Best of luck, and hope this helps!
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for your input ,does these "digital snake" mixers use cat cable between console and stage box or is there a wifi version? How many monitor is "standard".when you route the sound for instance from a guitarr mic to the monitor ,do you take the signal from the pre fader output and re-route it to another input that you assign to the monitor out?
 
We run a number of musical acts through our venue. I won't get into mixers and such as what we have wouldn't work for you.

Monitors - we have the capability of having up to eight monitors. The group size really determines how many we put on stage. Typically it is four.
I know you have a small stage (6 m x 3 m) - but everyone always wants a different mix in the monitor. So you might as well have the capability.

Microphones - we run Shure SM58 for vocals (wired, without switches) and SM57 for instrument microphones. We have a beta SM52A for kick (bass) drum.
In my opinion, you NEED drum microphones in a bar. A small drum kit (three SM57 microphones and a SM52A) would probably work for you. We also use SM57s to mic the acoustic instruments that are used on occasion. The SM57s can also be used to mic the amps.
How many microphones? Depends on your typical acts. Figure a small drum kit (see above) and a couple of extra SM57s to mic amps or instruments. Figure on at least four SM58s and maybe a spare. Want to go wireless? Depends on your budget. I would rather spend $150 US on a microphone, stand and cable than $600 for a wireless.
 
Thanks for your answer
OK it sounds like shures SM58´s THE microphone so thats one issue solved , i personaly like wired mikes as well both cost and not having the risk of interference and batteries going out...
 
I regularly work in several live music venues and while my main job may be lights, I do some on the audio side as well, and I used to be a tech supervisor for a venue which was sized not unlike the stage space you're faced with now. I packed a lot more people and gear on that stage than you'd imagine.

I'd definitely look at the Behringer X32 Compact or maybe even the Midas M32R - which an act just had through one of the venues recently. It sounded great. They ran only an ethernet cable out to the FOH position because everything input-wise went in to the monitor mixer inputs and a stagebox on stage. The guys that were touring the system said that they'd A/B compared the Midas with the Behringer and it was like night and day as far as preamps are concerned. I have not done that, so I cannot verify, but they seemed pretty happy to have paid extra for the Midas (even though the Behringer does say "Midas Preamps"). Both the Behringer and the Midas have a 32x16 stage box that you can put in your rack on stage and run your inputs to and also use to drive your mixes on stage as well as the mains and any aux feeds you need for fill in the rest of the venue. You'll then want probably (2) 16x4 XLR subsnakes that will plug in to that rack and go various places on stage. These will get the inputs from the stage to the rack as well as send the monitor signals back out. You may think that for such a small space you don't need subsnakes, but if you run a 4m subsnake to upstage center to collect drum and backline inputs as well as feed 2 wedges and send another downstage center to collect vocal/acoustic inputs and feed 4 wedges, then suddenly you've eliminated probably 80-100m of XLR cables for a larger band. And when there's a smaller group, only one of the subsnakes is necessary - ability for 16 inputs and 4 monitor outs to those powered monitors.

You will want to have an ethernet hardline to stage from the mixer to the stagebox. If you need to install a line up & over or under the floor, that's something you should plan on. Having an iPad would be very useful for setting up monitors and tweaking things on stage, but you should not rely on that as your primary method of control.

For mics, you can't go wrong with SM58s for vocals, SM57s for instruments, and a Beta 52a for kick, but I'd also get a 3-pack of Sennheiser E604s for toms and a pair of small condensers - the Shure SM81 is by and large the industry standard. That's a slightly scaled down inventory of the one room where I work - lots of 57s and 58s, a Beta 52a, (3) E604s, (2) SM81s.

For a stage that size I wouldn't get wireless mics, too much hassle for not enough utility given the stage size.

For monitors, I'd plan on at least 6 mixes, all with at least 12" powered wedges.
 
I think that you could probably get by on three monitors, any extra cash could be put to better use somewhere else, also if the X32 compact is too big and expensive, check out the X32 rack. Its the same mixer, just with the main control surface moved to an iPad, although I still say you should stay away from anything wireless, other than for secondary mixing.
Here's the breakdown of what I recommend

1 Behringer X32 compact- $1,800
1 SD-16 snake- $800
1 SD-8 snake- $600
3-4 EV ZLX-12Ps- $400 each
4+ SM 58s- $100 each
2+ SM 57s- $100 each
1 DMK57-52 kit- $400
8+ Boom Stands~ $30 each
Lots of good XLR cables
Some CAT-5 cable

Don't skimp on the quality of stands and cables, and always have extra microphones.

Maybe an APC power conditioner/back up, I have one for all of my gear, better safe then sorry.
 
About DI boxes. Often the musicians will bring their own - but it is nice to have a few spare.

If this a permanent install? Will it have to be broken down once in a while? Will the bar own the gear or will you own the gear?

No matter - I would still go for rack mount for everything. You can put it in a reasonable 16 U or so studio rack or a portable rack such as a Gator w/ wheels.
Have some secure storage. Mics, cables, etc. have a tendency to disappear. You can get a lockable gear box.

I would get a disc mic stand. Some acts have a singer rather than a singer/musician. While boom stands can work, they just don't look right. I would consider a kick mic stand for the bass drum.
 
JLNorthGA said:
About DI boxes. Often the musicians will bring their own - but it is nice to have a few spare
Click to expand...
It is a very rare event for me when a musician brings their own DI. I did have one acoustic guitarist who brought her own passive di. She was amazed by the difference between her passive and a countryman active DI.
 
it´s a permanent install ,the bar owns the gear.
I´ve been using Radial boxes from time to time ,not cheap but they do the job with flying colors ,maybe should in a nice array of those to be on the safe side..
 
Radial JDIs are my favorite and what I've seen used most commonly across many venues in my area and with touring setups. Countryman active Type 85s are nice for some things, but I think that the JDIs get the job done for most things just fine and sound real clean.
 
I second (3rd, 4th?) The X-32. Awsome console, love the LCD scribble strips.

Do you really need drum mics and lots of wedges? I dont know the space, but it'd have sounds like that that would result in alot of wash and lack of clarity. I may say this because I come from a jazz background, but I feel that in small spaces less is more.

I would recommend the following:

6 sm58 (vocals), beta if possible
6 sm57 (amps, other instruments, snare drum if you must)
2 sm81 for everything else
6 DI, pick you favorite....

For monitors I say NO MORE than 2-3 wedges. Spill is an issue. If you have need individual mixes, go the in-ear rought. The artists will feel special, and you will have no spill from them.

Wedges I use the JBL EONs, but any small or medium wedges will due. Be sure to plan for the extra edison run. In short (and money is no object) I would say 6 in eara (shure), and two wedges.

With the backline, be sure you have 120V service, thats what amps and keyboards use.
 
Ahhhh, one thing sometimes overlooked here, is the location of the OP, In this case Sweden which uses 230 V Europlug.
 
JohnD said:
Ahhhh, one thing sometimes overlooked here, is the location of the OP, In this case Sweden which uses 230 V Europlug.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the catch JohnD!
 
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