When to say no...

[Fountain Of Euph]

Hi all,

I just finished a gig with a group of foreign musicians in my venue. What should have been a 4 hour one-off bloomed into a 3 day "weekend off" killer.

The group just kept asking for more mics, different stands, and more monitors. I only had one channel left in my small mixer left by the end of the day.
We ended up using one monitor, one vocal mic and one instrument mic. They insisted on a boom stand for the vocal mic, contary to the straight stand I had set out, but the preformer ended up holding the mic anyway. I had tried to streamline things by minimizing the number mics and monitors on stage and moving the setup around, but they kept asking for more, having it set up, and not using it, and having me strike it.

Considering the fact that I found out about this gig 15 before they were showing up, and that my crew and I are all full time students, when can I as a professional say no. I dont mean to be a jerk, inflexible, or lazy, I just want to be efficient with everyone's time, make the show go well, and get everyone what they want.

Said another way, is there a good way to recommend a diffrent path to a client when you know that what they're asking for is redundant/not what they ultimately want.

 

[DuckJordan]

Depends, is this a rental or is this a purchased show? Are you signing the contracts? If its a rental, and you are not signing the contracts thats up to whoever is to say no. If its a purchased show and you are not signing the contract then same answer. The only time you can as a professional say no, is when you have the backing of whoever is financially backing the show.

 

[MNicolai]

The trick is selling them on what you want to do without having to say "No".

In general, swapping out mic stands isn't a battle worth fighting. It's the job.

There is a point at which you can dictate that they are there for a performance, not to tech their show and build up their tech requirements as if from scratch. You're not being paid to be their tech consultant they can use as a guinea pig. Provided there are no stipulations in a contract as to what is or is not to be provided (let's assume there aren't), you are generally well within your right to persuade them that you will provide them all of the support they need based on your expertise, and in your experience doing these events day in and day out, more is more. More isn't better. In fact, unnecessarily, more has greater potential to end up causing problems, complicating the event, and may very well distract you from doing your job effectively at providing them adequate sound.

You have to sell them on what you do or do not want to do. Unless you're privy to what the conditions of the contract, business agreement, or advance rider are, you should not take it upon yourself to refuse them service. There's likely someone higher than you on the food chain who is better equipped and more appropriate to have do this if need be.

That said, if you were given a rider and they start deviating from it a little, so be it. If they start reinventing the wheel, give 'em grief about it.

--

I vividly recall a show I did about a year ago that I mixed monitors for. Show wasn't too bad from the audience but was a disaster backstage. Entire show, I had the several performers standing at my cue wedge wanting to tell me how bad the monitor mix was and how everything sounded off to them and they couldn't hear. Their production manager sympathized with me as he heard my cue wedge the whole show and knew what was coming out of the monitors. The issue at hand was that the group chose to use their sound check as a rehearsal instead of a sound check. The performers clipped through sound check inattentively and refused to behave as they would be in performance (i.e. doing all of sound check from the piano upstage, then checking their monitor mixes from 1' away from their wedges, then the entire night dancing 10' upstage from their wedges wondering why they couldn't hear themselves).

Words were exchanged at various points throughout the night. Afterward, our technical director gave grief to their production manager about how they elected to use sound check for rehearsal and inattentively signed off on how everything sounded only to hate it later on. Their PM understood and apologized, having watched for himself how everything came to be. The technical director and I discussed afterward how we were both also at fault for feeling too apprehensive to slap the performers and get a proper sound check going.

--

In some regards, it's your job to give them what has been agreed upon via contract, rider, or verbal agreement. But it's also your job to make sure that things stay on track for a quality show, and a quality show isn't always guaranteed by adding more stuff, nor is it guaranteed by giving them everything they ask for. The secret sauce in all of this is to become a master at interpersonal communication and being keen on when to give in and when to take a stand (politely, if at all possible).

 

[StradivariusBone]

Mike just gave you a college education on this topic.

The technical director and I discussed afterward how we were both also at fault for feeling too apprehensive to slap the performers and get a proper sound check going.

I can't tell you how many times I've been in this situation. Groups that are just above amateur and right below professional are so guilty of using the soundcheck time for themselves and not to make sure they can function as they would normally. When we've had situations going on like this, I usually find the lead from the group and preface by saying, "Everyone here wants to have a good show, here's what we need to make that happen: (insert litany of woe). What do you need to make it happen?"

I once had a dance company renting out and we set up 6 booms in the wings with a ton of sidelight only to have the client get her and tell me that she didn't like it and it would be a safety hazard to her kids. We had explicitly discussed this in advance how I would set up the wings, but once she saw it she hated it and so we struck the booms. It sucked at the time, but we ended up having a good show, they were happy that we were attentive to their needs and they continue to do a lot of business with us. We also know better how to anticipate their needs since they are a regular client.

I'm always upfront with customers when they start wanting to cut into the time it takes our techs to learn their show and I'm always trying to find ways to make it easier for us to know what they're doing. A lot of this goes better if you have good communication ahead of load in, but sometimes you get 10 CD's and a packet 2 hours to curtain and you've just got to make it work. Having a general plan in place for shows like that can make it easier to slough through.

 

[Fountain Of Euph]

These are great ways of approaching this situation. How would you approach the same situation in a academic space where there is no contract per say, just professors making requests.

 

[StradivariusBone]

As a student: "Yes sir/ma'am."

As a colleague: Similar to what's been said above, but a lot less formality without a written contract. I still try and get as much info about the production as possible, but you also have to work with these people more regularly and you probably have the same boss.

 

[Calc]

How would you approach the same situation in a academic space where there is no contract per say, just professors making requests.

Now it gets interesting.

From my experience, the academic side tends to be every problem described above, doubled or tripled. In the mentioned situations, at least these people know what they should be doing, they just don't realize the problem they create when they don't. Most of the professors I work with only do an event in one of our spaces (on average) twice a year or so. They don't know what they need. Here's where you come in: they shouldn't need to know.

The info that you need to gather from them is what do they want from the event as the end result. What does the event consist of, why do they want it in this space rather than another, etc. Then you tell them what gear they need, how much time it'll take, and the cost. Be honest. They'll either insist that it's too much ($) or not enough (gear), so be ready to defend your position. Always be willing to change, but make it clear to them that there may be possible downsides. Then do your job well, earn some trust, and they'll begin to listen to your advice unquestioningly. Most of them.

Unfortunately, it's the ones who don't listen that will end up wasting 60% of your time. Good luck with them.

Other thoughts:
-The key here is the WHY. Why do I do X this way rather than another way? If something goes south, it'll be the first thing that they want to know.
-Email works great as a paper trail. Why didn't I do Y? Because you told me not to despite my suggestions.
-Document what you do/use. It'll come in handy a year from now when all they tell you is "I want to do the exact same thing as last time."

 

[cmckeeman]

These are great ways of approaching this situation. How would you approach the same situation in a academic space where there is no contract per say, just professors making requests.

I was in charge of a high school theater as staff and when we rented it out I knew what they rented and if they wanted to use other things I told them it would cost them more to rent, and it would eat into time to do other things, usually if you present the option as a "you can have this or that but likely not both" the clients understand. But I was also paid hourly for these shows so i wanted to do a good job so they came back.