Wireless System Questions

[Chont]

Hello,

New here so pardon the questions. I tried searching this info but didn't find what I was looking for.

here is my back story on this. I am part of a local theater and have a lot of experience in recording studios, audio editing and some live sound, but very little experience with wireless mics. About 20 minutes before a show I was in, I noticed they were still struggling to test sound. I texted the music director up in the booth with the person running the board to check if PFL buttons were pressed and they were which solved some of their issues so they asked if I could come up to the booth. They didn't have their mic signals split so there was no way to control how much signal from mics got to on stage monitors and it was feedback city. So I quickly re configured the setup and showed them how to work it. The show went on swimmingly. So naturally... they all turned to me and I'm the guy LOL.

They've now asked me to try and sort out their Wireless issues which I have some suspicions as to the causes but I don't know enough about it to give them confident solutions so would like to bounce them off the right people.

Using a Creative Audio CA.81 system.

Issue: We do a mic check and everything is clean. Show starts and one or more mics will crackle sometimes to the point that we just mute it.

1. They have the receivers about 100 feet away in the balcony. Is there a rule of thumb on max distance? and someone removed the directional antenna and put the whips back on. Can I put the Directionals back on but try and mount the antennas on the side wall and split the distance using a long BNC cable? Or would it be better to move the receivers to the wings.

2. Reading the manual for the system and am going to head there today and try rescanning the frequencies on all channels. Should this be done before every show? periodically?

3. Could the more elaborate costumes be the issue? or is it generally fine to have the transmitter pack inside the costume?

4. I wouldn't think cell phones and house wifi would be the cuprite but it did cross my mind considering its fine at mic check then show time comes and there are lots of people with cell phones in the house.

could also be the ghost of the theater... its old and has a reputation for being haunted.

anyway... thank you so much for reading this and any assistance you can provide. We have shows this weekend so hoping to help iron this out for a smooth show.

 

[jtweigandt]

If you get an actual crackle and not a just drop out, the first place I look is the microphone element from the mic to the wire to the connector. Many times you will have fatigue right where the wire joins the connector. I have seen a few where the actual connector socket on the mic pack side gets wonky as well. Multiple brands, 21 years of being the light guy who repairs physical electronics wherever possible. Start wiggling that mic wire and connector, and it may be quite revealing. Signal and antenna problems for us seem to manifest more in the form of dropouts with no pops, crackles. Have also seen some loose pack antenna problems similar to the mic element wire as well. But crackles first and foremost say to me.. physical wire path somewhere. Radio usually just fades away or cuts out without extra noise. Might also check antenna connections and wire paths, cabling on the receiver side. But I'm betting on the pack itself. Stand and talk or sing for mic check is different than moving around during performance.. so it can be clean for mic check and then pop like the dickens when folks are moving.

 

[Chont]

If you get an actual crackle and not a just drop out, the first place I look is the microphone element from the mic to the wire to the connector. Many times you will have fatigue right where the wire joins the connector. I have seen a few where the actual connector socket on the mic pack side gets wonky as well. Multiple brands, 21 years of being the light guy who repairs physical electronics wherever possible. Start wiggling that mic wire and connector, and it may be quite revealing. Signal and antenna problems for us seem to manifest more in the form of dropouts with no pops, crackles. Have also seen some loose pack antenna problems similar to the mic element wire as well. But crackles first and foremost say to me.. physical wire path somewhere. Radio usually just fades away or cuts out without extra noise. Might also check antenna connections and wire paths, cabling on the receiver side. But I'm betting on the pack itself. Stand and talk or sing for mic check is different than moving around during performance.. so it can be clean for mic check and then pop like the dickens when folks are moving.

thank you so much for the reply. That makes sense. The performer that had the crackle in the case of Friday's 2pm show has the most elaborate costume. They asked me to come help and were still doing light cues up until show time with that particular actress also being the director so she was the one in the booth showing the light tech the cues with the script. ... Long story and its community theater. We did mic check without costumes right before house opened so it would make sense that her getting on her costume and tugging and pulling on things would introduce issues.

is there a best brand of mic cable to use over others? I was heading there today to reset frequencies because this has had a long history of whoever is available operates the gear regardless of whether they know what they're doing so since its now falling on me I want everything 'zeroe'd out'. I'll see what brand they are using and look into replacing.

They do have some spare Sennheiser packs/receivers laying around. May also give those a whirl for this woman.

thanks again. Really appreciate the guidance.

 

[jtweigandt]

thank you so much for the reply. That makes sense. The performer that had the crackle in the case of Friday's 2pm show has the most elaborate costume. They asked me to come help and were still doing light cues up until show time with that particular actress also being the director so she was the one in the booth showing the light tech the cues with the script. ... Long story and its community theater. We did mic check without costumes right before house opened so it would make sense that her getting on her costume and tugging and pulling on things would introduce issues.

is there a best brand of mic cable to use over others? I was heading there today to reset frequencies because this has had a long history of whoever is available operates the gear regardless of whether they know what they're doing so since its now falling on me I want everything 'zeroe'd out'. I'll see what brand they are using and look into replacing.

They do have some spare Sennheiser packs/receivers laying around. May also give those a whirl for this woman.

thanks again. Really appreciate the guidance.

I have replaced and soldered on quite a few sennheiser screw lock style plugs.. Watch on those on the pack side as well, if I remember the socket has a knurled nut that loosens.. A hemostat clamp is your best skinny"pliers" there. Sometimes that quiets them right down. Can get one at wal mart where they sell them for retrieving hooks from fish. The Shure and AT connectors were not as straight forward, and we are more flush now, so the audio guys just buy new or send them in when they get fatigue. We use shoe trees to dispense the mics to the actors, and have them return them WITHOUT wrapping the mic cord under penalty of death. They think they are doing you a favor but end up putting the cord at a right angle coming out of the connector and voila.. Not for popping etc, but a reminder that hairspray and makeup are a killer for the elements.. We go through a mic care tutorial with every cast before mics are ever issued in rehearsal. Also possible with the extra sennheisers, or any of your mic series, you could be illegal at this point after the frequency re allocation. We had to replace a bunch because of that.

 

[TimMc]

Are you located in the USA, Canada or somewhere else, and what postal code? What, exactly (brand, model number, frequency range (numeric, not alaphabet letters) are the wireless units? I presume we're talking about body packs and concealed or ear-worn microphones... We can help with frequency coordination (intermodulation caused by uncoordinated transmit frequencies are a Bad Thing).

Metallic elements in costumes - aluminized Mylar or polyester or metallic thread - can act as a Faraday screen and prevent radiation from the transmitter antenna from reaching the receiver. It may be necessary to mount the transmitter pack somewhere there is not metal ( under a wig, for example).

Receiver location: 100 ft away in the balcony is far from idea; the antennae should be nearer the performers and positioned in a way that the actor's bodies are least often imposed between the transmitters and receive antennae.

Concealed and ear worn microphone signals are seldom put into foldback (stage) monitors because in many situations, by the time the actor is happy with the level, adding another mic to the mix will bring on feedback. IMNSHO, the only things belonging in foldback at non-professional productions should be piano, snare drum and any other orchestra/band input that actors need for either pitch or rhythm reference.

When we get more info we can help more. Oh, welcome to Control Booth, too!

 

[Chont]

@TimMc

Thank you and thank you for your reply.

Yes they had the mics in the same stereo bus feeding the FOH and also the onstage monitors. I split that for them so the Aux sends now feed the on stage monitors and only feed as much of the tracks as they need with zero microphone signal being sent. They are happy with the flexibility and results. I didn't set out to be their guy but its looking more like it every day LOL. The show running now my older kids are in and I got a text asking if I could come over and help... would have been nice to have gotten that during tech week and not right before show open but it is what it is.

to answer your questions.

We are in the USA. zipcode 18360 and using the Creative Audio CA.81R system

Creative Audio

Wireless Mic Systems Antenna Systems Microphones for wireless Theatre Speaker Systems Cables for Tidy Racks XLR Looms 4-16 way

creativeaudio.technology

I jotted down the Frequencies we have our Transmitters and receivers set to at the moment and I know nothing but looks all over the place to me. I was reluctant to do a rescan and resync until I learn a bit more but the revolving door of people operating the booth make me think it may be a good thing to do

Mic 1 - 504.400 ch 072

Mic 2- 513.200 ch 016

Mic 3 - 502.200 ch 06

Mic 4 - 522.800 ch 064

Mic 5 - 494.000 ch 020

Mic 6 - 522.600 ch 063

Mic 7 - 497.600 ch 038

Mic 8 - 518.800 ch 044


thanks again.

 

[Chont]

I had to pick my daughter up from rehearsal last night so I grabbed a tape measure and and measured the distance from stage to balcony. Turns out its actually only about 50 feet. Seemed a lot farther. This is a relief because there probably is a 50' stage box laying around if I decide to move the receivers to the wings. The other kids have their rehearsal today so going to try and get up there and do a rescan of the frequencies. Sucks that I really don't know if any of the things I'll be doing will make a difference until Friday night since there's no real way of testing without people in costumes doing the show but it will be good to get myself familiar with the process. In regards to the mic cables, one thing that jumps out at me is the cables we used friday seemed brand new. Packaging looked new on the ones I selected, but The exec director of the theater did mention to me when I was In the Christmas show that she has a guy that refurbs the cables for a good price. Didn't think much of it at the time but now I'm wondering if these are refurbs and getting them refurbed is just throwing money down the toilet.

 

[NickVon]

If you bought your Creative Audio wireless system from Rod Reilly he sells mics elements as well that probably came with the system. I like them the "Broadway" series as a great cost effective competitor to the Countryman B3/E3's. ( he also has a flat rate repair if program if it is either your the transmitter connection or element connector that might have gone bad.

Beyond that Everyone else has dialed in really well with the trouble shooting options and golden rules, and I don't have much else to add.

Other then report back on your solutions/fixes and let us know how it goes. I'm also interested in your ley-persons experience with the CA.81r.

I've been buying up Older Sennheiser EW100 G3 system which I really like, But the Ca.81 are new for what I can find the Sennheisers at on auction. So i'm curious about your opinion on them.

 

[Chont]

The exec director of the theater connected me with the guy that installed everything there. Didn't even know he existed LOL. Everytime I asked questions no one seemed to know the answers so this was huge. Really nice guy and met me at the theater with his frequency analyzer and went over the system for me. We tested the mics prior to that and there were RF dropouts. The system was resynced last week which I did not realize but the person that did it rescanned all 8 receivers then turned on all the transmitters which I learned was incorrect. The guy found a stray signal in the theater and then showed me how to resync the transmitters by scanning one receiver then sync that transmitter, leave that on and repeat for the remaining. Once we did that the signal was clean. The "directional" antennas that are in the theater are crap that he said didn't come with the unit and are probably some cheapo $30 antennas one of which had bad solder joints anyway and he did not recommend using at all. I was able to ring out the hanging mics with the onboard EQ on their mixer by pulling the mid freq to zero and sweeping through the bands. Its much better now at least for what they'll be used for this weekend. The kids show is tonight with the headline shows tomorrow and Sunday so fingers crossed we have better luck with the system. It also looks Like Rod Reilly was in fact the vendor for this unit and he also repairs the mics when the theater director sends them in.

 

[Chont]

That’s a wrap for this weekends run of shows. It was a success. Rescanned the wireless mics and everything went smooth. I little bit of crackle on the wig mic on one character but it was minimal and only in one scene. Worlds better than the previous week. The overhead mics were a big hit. I got a noce complement from the director of the headline show who is also in a the show. She was so grateful I came in during the week and to the overhears working noticed a huge difference with the larger ensemble numbers.

Still feel like the overheads could be lowered but it was a good weekend.

 

[TimMc]

That’s a wrap for this weekends run of shows. It was a success. Rescanned the wireless mics and everything went smooth. I little bit of crackle on the wig mic on one character but it was minimal and only in one scene. Worlds better than the previous week. The overhead mics were a big hit. I got a noce complement from the director of the headline show who is also in a the show. She was so grateful I came in during the week and to the overhears working noticed a huge difference with the larger ensemble numbers.

Still feel like the overheads could be lowered but it was a good weekend.

Overheads have to be *really* close to be useful in PA for dialog pick up. Where I think zone micing works best is with ensemble members who are not individually mic'd. The overheads/foot mics can be brought into the mix, and lowering any ensemble individual mics, makes for a nice blend and leaves principal mics up for Herr Direktor. It can sound really 'big' without being really loud.

 

[Chont]

Overheads have to be *really* close to be useful in PA for dialog pick up. Where I think zone micing works best is with ensemble members who are not individually mic'd. The overheads/foot mics can be brought into the mix, and lowering any ensemble individual mics, makes for a nice blend and leaves principal mics up for Herr Direktor. It can sound really 'big' without being really loud.

These are definitely set too high. I told them I'd like to lower them this week. The guy that installed told me the woman that runs the place didn't want them too low and visible but they're nearly pointless at this height especially for the kids shows. They worked well for filling things out when the ensemble were all on stage singing the main numbers.

 

[TimMc]

These are definitely set too high. I told them I'd like to lower them this week. The guy that installed told me the woman that runs the place didn't want them too low and visible but they're nearly pointless at this height especially for the kids shows. They worked well for filling things out when the ensemble were all on stage singing the main numbers.

I spent 7 years as A1 for a youth musical theater company and I kind of inherited the ways of doing things from the audio stagehands that were before me. AKG C-535 hanging by mic cables from LX battens, 3 Crown PCC-160 across the downstage, and a half dozen (later 10) company-owned, fixed frequency Shure UHF radio mics. All was good until the first digital TV re-pack and auction of the 700mHz UHF TV band, but the RF part is for another time.

I brought my personal Audio Technica hanging mics and then waited to hang them until I saw the height and location of any set pieces that moved during the show. I typically would hang 3, either 2 up stage and 1 mid-stage, or vice-versa depending on blocking and set. I put out the PCC-160s, too. I could do a show with these 6 mics if the kids would project and I was paying attention. It was certainly not a "turn 'em up and leave 'em up" mix.

It's been a year or so, so I can again say that we in education are doing our students no favors by failing to teach them to use their body to project their voices. /rant

 

[kenact]

Just a few observations from my own experience:

I've found on occasion that rustling clothing can sometimes be mistaken for crackling, though crackling is most often caused by a bad cable.

Agreed that theater students should be taught to project. I've worked with "professional" singers/actors who had problems hitting the back of a 65 seat theater.

I've always heard overhead mics referred to as choir mics. Most that I have used tend to be very directional and usually ineffective for productions where people are moving around. Something I've seen used to better effect are PZM floor mics pointed into a plexiglass reflector, that directs sound into the mic. But the plexiglass, though clear, is not invisible.

 

[Chont]

Just a few observations from my own experience:

I've found on occasion that rustling clothing can sometimes be mistaken for crackling, though crackling is most often caused by a bad cable.

Agreed that theater students should be taught to project. I've worked with "professional" singers/actors who had problems hitting the back of a 65 seat theater.

I've always heard overhead mics referred to as choir mics. Most that I have used tend to be very directional and usually ineffective for productions where people are moving around. Something I've seen used to better effect are PZM floor mics pointed into a plexiglass reflector, that directs sound into the mic. But the plexiglass, though clear, is not invisible.

I come from a recording studio background so I incorrectly refer to them as "overhead" mics. LOL. I was looking at the PZMs the other day for the front of the stage. Those would be a good fit for this place but I doubt I can get them to spend some money. The guy that came to give me the rundown of the wireles system was talking about getting them a new 22 channel mixer which would be great. I may mention the PZMs to him. Maybe he can get them on board.

 

[TimMc]

I come from a recording studio background so I incorrectly refer to them as "overhead" mics. LOL. I was looking at the PZMs the other day for the front of the stage. Those would be a good fit for this place but I doubt I can get them to spend some money. The guy that came to give me the rundown of the wireles system was talking about getting them a new 22 channel mixer which would be great. I may mention the PZMs to him. Maybe he can get them on board.

You want the Bartlett https://www.bartlettaudio.com/collections/stage-floor-mics

Or the Crown PCC-160 (which Bartlett helped develop).

 

[kenact]

Just another note, you mentioned possibly getting a new mixer. If you're seriously considering boundary mics, make sure the new mixer provides phantom power. Most do, but I have run into the oddball that doesn't. Also, there are some mics that can't handle phantom power, and require a buffer device between the mic and mixer.

TimMc: FYI, the PCC-160 is now handled by AKG, a sister company to Crown.

As for Crown itself, I've tried contacting them recently, regarding one of their XLS series amplifiers, and never got a response. Apparently Crown is now part of Harmon.

 

[FMEng]

I refer to Harmon as "The Borg." Harman has a way of damaging every brand they acquire, and nothing improved when Samsung bought Harman.

 

[brucek]

Metallic elements in costumes - aluminized Mylar or polyester or metallic thread - can act as a Faraday screen and prevent radiation from the transmitter antenna from reaching the receiver. It may be necessary to mount the transmitter pack somewhere there is not metal ( under a wig, for example).

Static discharge from wigs/costumes (think Seussical) can make random crackles & pops. I have spent hours figuring this out before.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

You want the Bartlett https://www.bartlettaudio.com/collections/stage-floor-mics

Or the Crown PCC-160 (which Bartlett helped develop).

I've worked theatre with both the 160's and the AT PZMs, and I find that they're passable for recording, but unless your facility has zero resonances, you're going to be pretty hard pressed to get enough GBF for reinforcement.